DPF and Emission Controls vs Models

[3Ts]

The often repeated idea that these systems are trouble free is so false that it needs to be called out as an outright deception. Anyone who has been writing these things for the long term knows that they are extremely problematic and the only “reliable” thing about them is that you can count on them failing within 5-7 years. Repairs are not affordable and many desire to bypass the system when faced with the cost. My Kubota regens every 16 hours or so, I run it at very high rpm.

I have a 2012 F250 diesel engine with almost 200k miles on it. It has proven to be very reliable, but the repairs I've had to make are all with the DPF system which is in the Thousands of $$$$, and days of delays to get parts and the repair time. I've just recently had to replace the DEF heater at a cost of ~$1500. And I'm in Texas and it doesn't get cold enough to freeze DEF (11* F to freeze it), so why do I need it? I had it fixed because that error would mask any other faults that may actually be a problem.

The other non-DPF repair was a $60 vacuum solenoid that I replaced myself.

 

[aircommuter]

Stricter Tier IV off-road diesel engine emission reduction standards phased in dealer tractor inventory during 2009 - 2012, impacting tractor prices.

Tier IV emission standards require tractor manufacturers to add or revise pollution reduction technology on new tractors generating over 19 kW power = 25.4794 horsepower.

What about BX2670 and 2670-1 for example that are close to that threshold?
Some manufactures can meet Tier IV requirements without a Diesel Particulate Fillter on low engine displacement, relatively high rpm engines powering ~2,000~ pound bare weight tractors up to 27 horsepower.

Sufficient tractor weight is more important for most tractor applications than increased tractor horsepower.

DPF is used by the majority of tractor manufactures for emissions control on OVER 24.4794 horsepower tractors.
Tier IV technology complicates the engine and exhaust package and is a significant cost factor. Tier IV technology tractor emit only about 1% of the pollutants emitted by a pre-Tier IV tractor.

Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) captures exhaust particulates (soot) in a ceramic matrix. When tractor engine runs sufficiently hot, accumulated particulates burn off periodically without operator intervention. If engine is not run continuously hot long enough to burn off particulates, diesel soot accumulates in the matrix. Once heavy soot accumulates in DPF the tractor forces soot clearance with the tractor parked and throttle open to about 2,200 rpm for about sixteen minutes, which makes the DPF REALLY HOT to burn off all accumulated soot. Burning off accumulated soot, either during operation or parked is called REGENERATION.


Regeneration is an infrequent DPF event with my Kubota three cylinder, 37-horsepower engine. Generally once every sixty engine hours. (Very consistent in Florida due to warm weather.)

60 hours X 60 minutes = 3,600 minutes.

16 regeneration minutes /3,600 = .00444 = 4/10s of 1% of engine time is consumed during parked regeneration.

Fuel cost for sixteen minute parked regeneration @ 2,200 rpm ~~$1.00.

Forty percent of my regenerations occur during operation, sixty percent parked.



The average residential tractor operates eighty engine hours per year, according to industry surveys.

3,000 hours DPF Life / 80 hours = 37.5 years of residential use prior to DPF replacement.

Diesel Particulate Filter supersedes tractor muffler.
At some point in time DPF needs to be replaced.
At some point in time tractors with mufflers need the muffler replaced.

But mufflers are much cheaper. Ash is the DPF killer which is the reason low ash engine oil. Testing shows that all Diesel engines in the U.S. before DPF totaled 5% of the particulates and China produced 30% of the particulates found in this country. Next thing is to figure out how much pollution is made manufacturing and replacing all this equipment, including mining, and trucking it around and disposing of said equipment.

 

[rScotty]

I have a 2012 F250 diesel engine with almost 200k miles on it. It has proven to be very reliable, but the repairs I've had to make are all with the DPF system which is in the Thousands of $$$$, and days of delays to get parts and the repair time. I've just recently had to replace the DEF heater at a cost of ~$1500. And I'm in Texas and it doesn't get cold enough to freeze DEF (11* F to freeze it), so why do I need it? I had it fixed because that error would mask any other faults that may actually be a problem.

The other non-DPF repair was a $60 vacuum solenoid that I replaced myself.

When looking at diesel problems, I'm not sure how much faith to put in Ford's diesel troubles. We've had three recent Ford truck diesels. Two of them were more trouble than they were worth - literally.....during the life of the truck, the diesels cost more to fix than the truck cost new.

Of the tractor diesels we've had, none have had engine problems anything like the Ford.
Our Japanese and German diesels have been trouble free.

For us, the Ford diesel is not the standard, it is the oddball.
rScotty

 

[JWR]

In the 1960's I travelled to New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco regularly on business. The air was so polluted I was ill by the end of almost every trip. Now there are, I am guessing, twice as many vehicles on the road and when fire smoke is not bad, one can breathe reasonably well.

I could not disagree with you more.


Tier IV technology tractors emit only about 1% of the cancer causing diesel soot emitted by a pre-Tier IV tractors.

So Jeff, your really believe that the air got clearer and we breathe better because the EPA went crazy stupid turning the screws down on VW diesels and went after tractors which are are a tiny, tiny part of overall air pollution?

I could not disagree with you more...to coin a phrase.

 

[rScotty]

So Jeff, your really believe that the air got clearer and we breathe better because the EPA went crazy stupid turning the screws down on VW diesels and went after tractors which are are a tiny, tiny part of overall air pollution?

I could not disagree with you more...to coin a phrase.

What I got from Jeff's message had to do with the air being much worse back before the the gov't put the screws down on pollution of all forms. Mostly industrial smokestack industries, but yes - also vehicles of all forms. And it worked. That is what Jess is saying. The air is lots cleaner. Everyone knows that.
He is simply giving credit where credit is due.

Speaking strictly for myself now, I am disappointed that we waited until a lot of smaller industries got hurt. Small farms, small diesels, and many others.... mostly the smaller folk. Like you and me. But we understood at the time that big city smog had become a real emergency. Luckily we had a government that was even bigger than big business at the time.

As a society we tolerate a lot of things in an emergency. It's one of our country's strengths. But maybe next time we can use our brains to fix things before the emergency happens. That would be worth doing.

rScotty

 

[jyoutz]

What I got from Jeff's message had to do with the air being much worse back before the the gov't put the screws down on pollution of all forms. Mostly industrial smokestack industries, but yes - also vehicles of all forms. And it worked. That is what Jess is saying. The air is lots cleaner. Everyone knows that.
He is simply giving credit where credit is due.

Speaking strictly for myself now, I am disappointed that we waited until a lot of smaller industries got hurt. Small farms, small diesels, and many others.... mostly the smaller folk. Like you and me. But we understood at the time that big city smog had become a real emergency. Luckily we had a government that was even bigger than big business at the time.

As a society we tolerate a lot of things in an emergency. It's one of our country's strengths. But maybe next time we can use our brains to fix things before the emergency happens. That would be worth doing.

rScotty

I remember brown smoggy skies in the 1960-70s. And there was often pollution alerts warning people with respiratory problems to stay indoors. We also witnessed acid rain killing forests and rivers that caught fire. Nixon’s clean air and water acts made a difference over so many years. I imagine many people posting are too young to remember those days.

 

[JWR]

I am 80 in Sept. Not too young anymore. I recall the Viet Nam war protesters having no more war to march against or protest about in 1975 when Saigon fell. I recall very vividly at the time thinking it was great to have a universally good "cause" to work on like cleaning up the USA and take the place of rancor. Environmental, roadsides, water, air, etc. Something all of us could support while the activists of the day could turn their energies to the positive. Like nearly every extreme you can point to it started out with good intentions.

 

[rScotty]

I am 80 in Sept. Not too young anymore. I recall the Viet Nam war protesters having no more war to march against or protest about in 1975 when Saigon fell. I recall very vividly at the time thinking it was great to have a universally good "cause" to work on like cleaning up the USA and take the place of rancor. Environmental, roadsides, water, air, etc. Something all of us could support while the activists of the day could turn their energies to the positive. Like nearly every extreme you can point to it started out with good intentions.

Isn't that always the problem?... What do you do with the people on the front line once the emergency is over? What about the agency they worked for?

We created the emergency and the response. Part of the price of victory was creating a bunch of "true believers". Does it matter if you call them military veterans or environmental zealots?

Now how to tell them that their job is no longer needed? You'd think they would be happy to have done and be free to do something else. Most seem to be, but there will always be frantics who aren't.

rScotty

 

[Rdrcr]

^^^^
And thank God they are now going after coal fire ovens in NYC!!! Ridding those historic Italian pizza restaurants of these dangerous cooking devices will surely save the planet! Unbelievable….

What’s next?

Mike

 

[aircommuter]

What I got from Jeff's message had to do with the air being much worse back before the the gov't put the screws down on pollution of all forms. Mostly industrial smokestack industries, but yes - also vehicles of all forms. And it worked. That is what Jess is saying. The air is lots cleaner. Everyone knows that.
He is simply giving credit where credit is due.

Speaking strictly for myself now, I am disappointed that we waited until a lot of smaller industries got hurt. Small farms, small diesels, and many others.... mostly the smaller folk. Like you and me. But we understood at the time that big city smog had become a real emergency. Luckily we had a government that was even bigger than big business at the time.

As a society we tolerate a lot of things in an emergency. It's one of our country's strengths. But maybe next time we can use our brains to fix things before the emergency happens. That would be worth doing.

rScotty

I think the air got cleaner when all the factories and foundries moved to China and India.
When it comes to fines for the Diesel manufacturers that’s just government taxing indirectly. All the makers had to pay fines at some point. That makes it obvious.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

We just exported the pollution. Which is global, so it's like virtue signaling

 

[aircommuter]

Just like those container ships coming from China destined for what ever country, mostly the U.S. have the pollution built in when the ship arrives. They never seem to be concerned about that. Kinda like cruise ships driving around and not accomplishing anything but pollution so people can gamble and spread viruses.

 

[aircommuter]

I have made thise trips and never had an issue. But from the 50s to the 80s was the major change. From power plants, factories, trains, cars, trucks, airplanes and much more. In the late 60s the first thing on cars was positive crankcase ventilation. That was the major change that did the most good for cars. Diesels can largely be cleaned by just a balanced fuel air ratio. Soot is simply excess fuel. The rest is just nickel and dime by comparison. But there is money in smog control and they will bleed it to the last penny! California has their bureaucracy know as CARB, with an annual budget of over $1B they cannot kill that virus. Just their existence is polluting. Importing people certainly adds pollution, running around campaigning in a 747 accompanied by two F16s and KC 135 tanker certainly makes a bit of pollution. Now they are pushing digging up the earth using Diesel fuel to extract minerals which is shipped around the globe (burning fuel) for processing and then it is packed to plastic (oil based) cells to make electric fuel tanks so cars can relocate the pollution. Fact check, it takes 500,000 gallons of water to make ONE metric ton of lithium OMG! Not to mention these tanks hold less every time they are filled. Cars are not a huge source of pollution today. Just visible to the public. Watch the documentary on Dubai airport and you will see how much fuel is spent on GOING FAST when they launch an airplane holding 40,000 gallons of fuel or more every minute! With the largest fleet of Airbus 380s in the world. This airport was only built to make money and compete as a stopover against other hubs. Make money it does with duty free shops making over $1B annually. Keep in mind they are not the busiest. To think that they are pushing electric power as some kind of earth saver is simply insane.

 

[JWR]

Yep, INSANE.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

I have made thise trips and never had an issue. But from the 50s to the 80s was the major change. From power plants, factories, trains, cars, trucks, airplanes and much more. In the late 60s the first thing on cars was positive crankcase ventilation. That was the major change that did the most good for cars. Diesels can largely be cleaned by just a balanced fuel air ratio. Soot is simply excess fuel. The rest is just nickel and dime by comparison. But there is money in smog control and they will bleed it to the last penny! California has their bureaucracy know as CARB, with an annual budget of over $1B they cannot kill that virus. Just their existence is polluting. Importing people certainly adds pollution, running around campaigning in a 747 accompanied by two F16s and KC 135 tanker certainly makes a bit of pollution. Now they are pushing digging up the earth using Diesel fuel to extract minerals which is shipped around the globe (burning fuel) for processing and then it is packed to plastic (oil based) cells to make electric fuel tanks so cars can relocate the pollution. Fact check, it takes 500,000 gallons of water to make ONE metric ton of lithium OMG! Not to mention these tanks hold less every time they are filled. Cars are not a huge source of pollution today. Just visible to the public. Watch the documentary on Dubai airport and you will see how much fuel is spent on GOING FAST when they launch an airplane holding 40,000 gallons of fuel or more every minute! With the largest fleet of Airbus 380s in the world. This airport was only built to make money and compete as a stopover against other hubs. Make money it does with duty free shops making over $1B annually. Keep in mind they are not the busiest. To think that they are pushing electric power as some kind of earth saver is simply insane.

Our rulers and your betters want all the natural beauty and great expanses of the world to themselves. Gov of Michigan says no boating then gets caught on a boat, Gov of Ca. says no gathering then get caught with his rich friends gathering at the most expensive eatery in the area, mayor of Chicago says all beauty business must decline customers, Then gets caught, same as the previous house speaker. Imagine that. Owning Michigans vast waterways all to yourself, driving around California no traffic, no dealing with plebeians except those serving you. These people are INSANE. I'm on TV of course I need to have a beauty appointment. That was one of the for real excuses. While you are literally beaten by police for hiking on a trail. 15 minute cities are no conspiracy theory, agenda 2030 is not a conspiracy, own nothing and be happy is not some made up right wing kook fever dream. Does not matter to me Im old, and have made preparations to be as minimally effected as possible on our income. But the younger, poorer, less innovative generations will never know what real freedom is and live with a boot on their face forever.

 

[aircommuter]

Of course they are duped from birth.

 

[Bob_Young]

I remember brown smoggy skies in the 1960-70s. And there was often pollution alerts warning people with respiratory problems to stay indoors. We also witnessed acid rain killing forests and rivers that caught fire. Nixon’s clean air and water acts made a difference over so many years. I imagine many people posting are too young to remember those days.

I'm not too young. I lived, worked, flew, and jogged in Pittsburgh in the mid '70s. You could chew the air. Only problem was it took a Special VFR clearance to get in and out of the AGC Control Zone (as they called it then) when flying VFR. Visibility hovered between 1.5 and 2 miles for weeks at a time.

Pittsburgh still had steel mills then. They made steel there. A lot of people with HS educations made big salaries working in the mills. 'Enlightened' people decided this was bad.

One thing I actually liked about Pittsburgh then was that you could take a big lungful of Pittsburgh air and tell it had done a day's work. That was air that could make a person proud. It hadn't wasted its time flitting among the daisies.

There are worse things than air pollution. Why risk finding out about them?

 

[aircommuter]

You mean it was those factories and not the cars? That’s why China is IFR all the time. Factories. Their EVs are the most polluting in the world.

 

[jyoutz]

You mean it was those factories and not the cars? That’s why China is IFR all the time. Factories. Their EVs are the most polluting in the world.

Those cars were big polluters back then also.