Downsizing a house

[Deflexor]

I moved onto this property 2 years ago, 6.3 acres with a single wide near the road and the main house about 200 yards back. This would become a book if I tried to explain everything that was/is wrong with this place.

After spending the first year hauling off all the garbage and trying to fix all the problems, we decided it was taking too long and costing too much to polish a pile of junk. We decided to take a different route, go back into debt and have a new home built.

The single wide was demolished and a new home built in its place. We lived in the original home until the new one was finished.

County zoning rules for a "secondary dwelling unit" restrict the square footage. Recently the rules were changed so the SDU can be 1/2 the size of the primary home. The new home is now the primary and the old place is the SDU. Problem is the original house (SDU) is now too big.

The original house is on a slope and two level (some would call the lower level a daylight basement) and is pier and beam. The lower level has a large bedroom, bathroom/laundry, kitchen/dining room, and living room with storage under the stairs. The upper level has a single wide trailer (14 ft x 64 ft) in the center of it with an 8 ft wide hallway down the full length on one side and partitioned dining, pantry, laundry, and entry down the other side (extending out 6 ft for a total width of 28 ft). The entire upper level has a metal roof with no insulation in the "attic" except the original that is in the single wide. Only one window in the enclosed single wide from the master bedroom on one end opens to the outside, the windows from the other two bedrooms, the bathroom, and the kitchen open into the hallway on the opposite side.

The lower level is well withing the county restriction. After speaking with the county officials I have been told that I can keep the upper level as storage if I remove cooking, cleaning/bathing, and bedrooms. I was also told I could keep heat and lights in this area.

........................................................................
Article 4.3 Accessory Dwellings

Habital space shall include all enclosed areas used for living, cooking, eating, sanitation, and sleeping.
..........................................................................

I emailed the Chief Building Official asking the following.

Can plumbing be capped off or does it need to be removed, and or, disconnected from service.
Can electrical be capped off or does it need to be removed, and or, disconnected from service, ie. 220 volt outlet for kitchen range?
Do I need to remove cabinets or can I just remove faucets and sinks?
What constitutes a sleeping area?

I never received a response and believing that the squeaky wheel gets greased I have not tried again hoping to delay the inevitable to give me time to complete this before they start fining me. Most of the original house was done without permits, or to code. The plumbing is wrong and the electrical is scary. I am hoping to correct the problems as I go.

Searches on the web only tell how to increase square footage not decrease. I would like to do this with a minimum of cost and time. I am willing to tear out the floors seal off the doors lay in insulation and call it an attic if I have to. Can I just lift out the 2 toilets and cap off the closet flange? Can I lift the sinks out of the counters and leave it at that? If I take off the doors is the room no longer a bedroom? Do I need to remove the outlets for the range and dryer?

I would gladly accept any ideas and suggestions.

 

[oosik]

Hi there Deflexor. You can certainly do all that you mention in the last paragraph. However - before you go into a "grip & rip" frenzy - it would be advisable to know exactly what the building codes will require.

Ideally - somebody familiar with codes in your area can provide answers. I DO understand your hesitancy to initiate further contact with the building dept but it may come down to that.

 

[standup616]

Devils advocate here, the building inspector not likely to give you a response because then you can say “he said I could” and by just removing certain things and leaving the “stubs” there, whats to stop you from re-installing as soon as the inspectors car leaves driveway? I would take before photos, try the easiest for you to do. Even on Alabama Gulf Coast, I would remove unnecessary water pipes or put a shutoff and way to drain where water comes in, thats just asking for a freeze or leak to damage the structure. H

 

[newbury]

Are you positive you HAVE to downsize?
If

Recently the rules were changed

are you sure you can't be "grandfathered" in?

I've a 1/2 acre property in Alexandria, Va. I wanted to put an addition on it which would end up the 12' minimum distance from the property line on each side.

About 50 feet from the house is a cement block shed, 10x15x8H built about 40 years ago and only 5 feet from the property line. One of the "permit" people told me before I got the permit I would have to tear down the shed because it was too close to the line. I objected because the 12' rule came in YEARS AFTER the shed was built legally. They changed their mind, I still have the shed.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm confused on the reason for what you are doing, but if you are wanting to remain legal and do it according to the rules, nothing works better at this then meeting with the person in charge, or the one doing the inspections, and talking to that person face to face. Be sure to bring a notepad and write down what you are told in front of that person. Your goal is to eliminate all confusion. In my opinion, it doesn't really matter to me what they want done, that's what I will do. I just want to do it once and be able to move forward after doing what has to be done. Email and even phone calls can be misinterpreted, or in some cased, ignored and retracted. There is no better way to get something done then a face to face meeting!!

 

[4570Man]

Why don’t you build the new house on a different piece of land and sell this place?

 

[goeduck]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter to me what they want done, that's what I will do. I just want to do it once and be able to move forward after doing what has to be done. Email and even phone calls can be misinterpreted, or in some cased, ignored and retracted. There is no better way to get something done then a face to face meeting!!

Excellent advice ^^^^^

They rule to roost and cooperation pays off. The last thing anyone wants is for the inspector to dig their heels in. Most will give you hints at better ways to do things if they sense you are working with them and want to do the work yourself.

 

[Deflexor]

The new house is already built, I was told that I would have to do this before the new house was approved. (No grandfathering) This area is growing and I had to settle for this place due to limited choices and time/money.

I did do a face to face meeting with a notebook, twice with an underling and once with the big guy.

Chief Building Official wanted the email to include a drawing with dimensions and minor details, which I did include.

I was hoping someone here might have some experience with this kind of situation.

 

[ultrarunner]

I do agree of having good results requesting a meeting with the Chief Building Official and coming in with the attitude of doing it right...

On the other hand... there are bad inspectors and one in my city is facing over a million in fines for taking kickbacks and bribes and it caught up to him.

Oakland inspector took bribes from building owners, ethics probe finds - SFChronicle.com

My deaf friend was building his family home... it took 5 years and 2 were in design review... it is that bad here... had he not been using his own money it would have bankrupted anyone else...

He got caught up with the pay to play guy but did not know it... my friend dug in his heals and since he was deaf and on the PUC for my State... filed a complaint that the city inspection staff was not accommodating his disability which meant all correspondence on a TDD machine... the beauty was now everything was in writing and a paper trail...

The one thing he had going for him is he was moving in and owed no one anything... said he could care less what happens after he is gone or if the property is every finaled. I was with him and it was very interesting... the Governor Commission on Disabilities, the City Council Member, CBO... etc... in the end they just wanted the case closed and it was with final in hand...

My take away is there is a time to dig in and go for broke... thankfully I have always been able to work through the issues by being sincere and I never ran into a public official wanting a payout...

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I think I understand the situation, but I want to make sure I'm getting it.

* You own a lot, which had an existing house (the "Old House.")
* You build a new house on that lot (the "New House")
* You haven't yet gotten final approval to occupy the New House.
* Where you live, in order to have two houses on the same lot, one has to be less than half the size of the other.
* You want to keep the Old House.
* The New House is larger than the Old House, but not twice as large.
* Your jurisdiction considers the size of a house to be its "habitable area" which does not include unfinished storage space.
* In order to get permission to occupy the New House enough of the habitable area of the Old House has to be converted to storage to make it less than half of the size of the New House.

Did I get it right?

Now, I think Eddie gave the best advice, which is go talk to the inspectors and find out what they want. But I'm also not above speculating a bit. I see two aspects to your questions. The first is how thoroughly you need to disassemble your living space to make it no longer living space and now storage space. If you leave the cabinets in, aren't you just storing them in your storage space? There's so much subjectivity there that you're really best talking to the inspectors. The other aspect is for plumbing and electric, what are the code requirements or best practices for discontinuing services? Unused electrical can be left in the wall. Disconnecting a circuit at the breaker box just takes a minute. Capping a water supply is pretty simple, I'd cut the supplies on the first floor and cap them where they tee off. I'd leave the drain pipes and cap them at the tee or even put in a cleanout.

I find demolition to be relatively easy and not that much work, especially if you get a dumpster. I'd gut the kitchen and baths to the studs and be done with it.

 

[ultrarunner]

Or… how many square feet would you have to add to the new house to solve the problem assuming you want to keep the old house as-is?

Can you bump out a room?

 

[Deflexor]

Quicksandfarmer

Correct on all counts except we have occupied the new house. I have three months to get into compliance, half of that time gone because of the move even though it was next door and a multitude of details involved like having to hook up the water at the well myself because the contractor stated he wasn't allowed to do that (permits extra expense etc.) though they did run the trench and water line up to the well. The original owner (I am the second owner of this property) did a lot of stuff without permits and not to code, it has been a nightmare correcting just the electrical problems. I'm surprised this place didn't burn down a long time ago, i.e. 110 circuit to an outbuilding legged off of a 220 circuit with exposed splices.

Ultrarunner

That would be a very large add on to the new house involving permits, expense, and time which I don't have. I'm just looking for someone who may have had experience with this sort of thing.

My wife doesn't want to "gut" the place and wants the cabinets left in place. Gutting it seems like the fastest way to do this despite what she wants. The deeper I get into the bones of the house I have this fear of finding it not worth salvaging and I need to throw a match into it.

 

[bcp]

There is a normal-looking house around here, well-kept on the outside, but upon close examination, there is no floor and it is used as a horse barn.

After speaking with the county officials I have been told that I can keep the upper level as storage if I remove cooking, cleaning/bathing, and bedrooms.

What's the difference between a bedroom and a storage room?

Bruce

 

[quicksandfarmer]

What's the difference between a bedroom and a storage room?

That's where you really need to talk to the inspector, because the answer is whatever he says it is. There isn't any universal definition of what makes a bedroom.

 

[goeduck]

There isn't any universal definition of what makes a bedroom.

A closet is going to tilt it to a bedroom in the eyes of many reviewers. There are many stand alone armoire options.

 

[farm boy00]

Dont take my advise for anything legal but heres my thoughts.

Gut all of the plumbing. If you can access the plumbing underneath the floor do it. Get rid of all of the electrical that would not be needed for a few lights and a few outlets.

You may even want to just gut the whole upper floor so it is just a big one room storage area. Get rid of all of the unnecessary walls and other things. That way they will see it is not a livable area.

Remember, my advise is not any legal advice just personal opinion of what I would do.

 

[zmountaineer]

At my last house in the city we had a detached garage with an apartment above it. We did not rent the apartment out and it was nothing but storage. I called the code compliance office about it bc we were being assessed as if it were a legal dwelling and since it wasn’t our primary residence it was taxed double. We were paying as much for our garage in taxes as we were our house we were living in. I asked what I could do to make this non-livable and make it part of my property to be taxed as a whole. He said to remove the bathroom. The bathroom was the sole criteria our city had for making it a livable structure.

 

[prof fate]

accidental fire...collapse during a storm...

When I was young we lived ohio on a property with 2 rental units. We bought it and lived in one and wanted to demolish the other. the town refused in every way possible - loss of tax revenue I suppose was their underlying reasoning.

Where I live now grandfathering is common (pa). And building codes are now pretty much nationwide - and as long as you do NOTHING to the property, you're OK. As soon as you do anything that requires a permit most everything you touch has to be brought up to current code. In PA it was county by county what they had for code till about 5 years ago, now we follow the national code - so MUCH has been done wiht no permits, no code concerns, etc.

IN otehr words, buyer beware.

And one's insurance company can always step and in create issues..must have a railing, new roof (both in mycase) or new wiring (friend had some knob an dtube in an old house).

Not sure what the definition of a dwelling is..I mean, can you call it a shed, chicken coop, etc?

Each area is so different..someone here wanted a barn on a lot - they bought 2 lots that abutted, and were told no, had to have a home on it. They could 'un-subdivide'..which they did, then the town told them no again - they passed a new law that no outbuilding can have a footprint larger than the house...which annoys me as I wanted a barn. Now the house can be as big as you want...but that cranks up the taxes and forces a re-assessment.

So..remove struction till it falls down...or there's a fire while you're working on it...who cares about teh insurance, just sweep up the mess.