dogs fallen out

gsxr1100 · Jun 8, 2005

I agree that owners should be alpha but I would not recommend putting hands on throat etc. I would never even recommend that. My old male was great but no one could flip him over and do that. If I had to, I had to muzzle him. He was a great dog but did not like that flipping on the back. Some dogs have little issues and you the owner needs to WORK with them. I am no dog expert but you could be getting into a worse situation by doing the throat deal. My wife has owned rotties longer then 50% of my life and she is not alpha at our home, but they listen to her as if it was me. Each dog knows what they can do with her or me. Again, there is no one cut and try way to be alpha. It is like our three dog, I treat my female rottie as if she is alpha, but the pack decides who is, not me (and it is not her).

Try rolling a mastiff over 300 lbs on the floor!! J

My dogs are “kids”, not dogs. J

gsxr1100 · Jun 8, 2005

I agree it is exciting to have the puppies but I am a little biased (I guess) since working doing rescue and shelter work with the wife. Then watching all the sweet dogs be put down, is well, depressing. Most times if it because of stupid owners or over population (lack of space in shelter).

Jagmandave · Jun 8, 2005

Anybody ever watch the TV show "The Dog Whisperer"?

I've become a real fan of Ceasar and his methods. He says the same thing about humans needing to be the alpha dog in their world. He says the only way the dog will be happy is when it knows it's place in the heirarchy, and that many people seriously screw their dogs up by not being " in charge".
If you get a chance, watch his show, he's pretty amazing. He never shouts at the dogs, or hits them or manhandles them in any way, but he sure gets their respect and control in a hurry.
It's especially illuminating to watch him with a very agressive dog.........

thegreatrandini · Jun 8, 2005

Dargo I think you need to study the origins of the GSD. Your dogs ancestors were "inbred". All breeds of dogs were created using inbreeding. This is not the ruin of breeds. Uneducated breeders are. Some imports have bad temperment also. The American made GSD has been bred for different traits then the Germans want. That is all. Both use linebreeding as a tool. The German SV is like a dictatorship. They tell you who you can breed to. These dicisions are sometimes corrupted with politics but for the most part they are to streamline the breed to a certain type. Typically a well bred "German" GSD will make a better police dog. Many well bred "American" GSD's make a better pet for the average family... You being an outside person with land and time may prefer the more agressive German made GSD but that does not mean the breed is ruined in America. Also importers tend to import what they consider lesser Quality to America. This has hurt the quality of the breed in America. It is very hard to find an import with correct structure. Temperment of American show dogs has improved greatly in the last 15 or so years. My past champion produced several working dogs as well as AKC champions group winners etc... You had to love this dog. He was as tough as they come and sweet as honey.....One thing I will say about GSD temperments is that it takes a few years for them to mature. A dog with a strong drive needs a job and some young dogs left in city backyards or kennels with nothing to do may seem a little wild until they mature....For herding I prefer the seemingly high strung nervous young dog.. They just need sheep to chase and you see an entirely different temperment.. I know Border Collies are often accused of having bad temperment. They just need a job and may not make the best pet for the average family.. Not everyone needs a police dog. Many American GSD's today have a Temperment more like a Golden Retriever.. These dogs make better household pets. They are all lovey dovey.....happy go lucky but very smart. In todays crowded world I think this is what is needed. These temperments have been created through selective breeding and yes linebreeding. Besides in most states you can Mary your cousin!!!!!!Mine said no!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif ha ha

getut · Jun 8, 2005

I'm probably not going to be popular for bringing this up... but the very act of breeding pure lines introduces genetic mutations. Good breeders take every step possible to MINIMIZE the chances of it occurring, but that doesn't change the fact that very tight breeding for certain qualites BY DEFINITION weeds out the genetic diversity needed to keep healthy animals. People will argue otherwise but this is cold hard fact. I agree that some breeders try to keep it to a minimum, but genetic mutations and problems will continue to occur at a MUCH higher rate in pure breeds EVEN when properly screened before breeding. That is how the genetic problems start from the very beginning (too tightly breeding for certain qualites).

I guess you all know where I stand with purebreds now. I like Black labs.. always have, but actively search for the Black Lab with something else thrown in (mutt that still looks like a black lab).

Junkman · Jun 8, 2005

( ..................
My preferred discipline technique is to flip them over pin them to the ground with your hand firmly around their throat and then yell at them very loudly while showing them lots of teeth. This is how they do it between themselves and is what they understand. If you do it right then no one gets hurt and the pecking order gets maintained. It's not always easy with big dogs but if you can't dominate a big dog then you probably shouldn't own one (IMO). )

Great idea.... now please tell us how you get your wife and children to behave, listen and do as they are told so you remain as Master of the household??????? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Freds · Jun 8, 2005

( Try rolling a mastiff over 300 lbs on the floor!)

That is exactly the reason that if any alpha rolling is going to go on, you need to do it at an early age, with a just reason of course.
The 300 lb Mastiff doesn't know you can't still do that to him and the sound/sterness of your voice should remind him how angry you can get.
Nobody should apha roll a full grown dog. That is what training collars are for.

But, going back to the two females or any multi dog pack, they need to know the pecking order below you. You are boss, but if you have separated them everytime they both wanted the same toy, everytime they looked at each other funny, then they have never settled among themselves who is ranked next. This, in my opinion, should be done when a dog is still in adolescence if given the chance because issues don't nearly mean as much and one will surely cave. Unfortunately females in general are more vicious than males when settling their differences and if it has gone this long....

Just my thoughts.

Freds · Jun 8, 2005

I agree with some of this, but I feel the BIG difference of European breeding in any dog breed, is the fact that temperment still means something. The dog still needs to perform, have function, be sound AND look good.
The poor American GSD has been bred for looks alone and to do that "flying trot" or whatever the conformation people call it, as long as it isn't over a great distance....
GSDs are poor dogs to board anyway, but give me a German line one any day over an American line. There is a noticeable difference in the "soundness".

Dargo · Jun 8, 2005

( Dargo I think you need to study the origins of the GSD. Your dogs ancestors were "inbred". All breeds of dogs were created using inbreeding. )

I only have a minute, but I did study GSD's at great length before I selected my current dog. This was precipitated by the awful agony of seeing my first GSD slowly suffer from hip displaysia. That dog was given to me since I have room and am a self admitted animal lover. I'm not a weak guy, but I'll admit that it took its toll to see a wonderful dog suffer. Have you ever had a dog that was so happy to see you that he had to come running up to you every time he saw you? I'm sure you have. Now, picture that dog with the same excitement to see you, but picture it dropping back to the ground in agony because of its hips, but try over and over to get up to see you. I couldn't get to him fast enough to prevent him from trying to hop up and run to me. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif That was awful for me.

I'll spare you the rest of that story. Anyway, I loved the breed so well that I in fact bought numerous books and read extensively on the internet about the breed. Nothing can guarantee you against problems such as my first GSD had, but you can do certain things to minimize the chances. Again, you are more than welcome to disagree, but I found compelling evidence that most every American version of the GSD had issues that could be traced to extensive line breeding. Feel free to say that I was "taken" for cash with the requirements I had for my current dog's pedigree. The bottom line is that I'm happy, and my dog is wonderful. I can't pronounce any of his ancestor’s names, but I have secure and legitimate documentation of his lineage.

Perhaps you can say that my stance is more for the benefit of the animal than the owner. However, it is certainly possible to have pure breed dogs that have not had any inbreeding in many, many generations. If you have studied genetic recombinants, you will understand more of how certain genetic flaws that have existed in a breed, due to inbreeding or whatever, can easily become recessive gene within the breed with a very unlikely chance of resurfacing with generations of prudent breeding. It’s important for the owner to be happy, but it is only responsible to do what we know with modern science to be the right thing.

PBinWA · Jun 8, 2005

( Great idea.... now please tell us how you get your wife and children to behave, listen and do as they are told so you remain as Master of the household??????? )

Ha! That takes lots of deception and reverse psychology. My wife is really good at it. She lets me think I'm the head of the household.

; p

gsxr1100 · Jun 8, 2005

Again, I agree about not rolling on the floor but training collars mean zero at times. Our old police k9 dog would take a prone collar and it do nothing. Also a lot depends on the dog and when the dog arrived in your home. Our old male rottie would not even stop with training colors. Our pits are way different then our rotties. Not as stubborn.

My wife’s last female had the following titles: AKC CD, ASCA CD, CGC, TT, TDI, PP, HIC, CS, CI. This dog did not live with me but was great in public, hospitals, shows, etc but what the dog got home, the home was HER home and by god, take the hat off!

If someone is trying to show alpha but rolling on floor, it is bad news. That is just welcoming a bite someday. Try that when fostering a dog….Not gonna happen.

I would agree about different breeding. The German way for rotties is small and have tails (per their standards). Now the USA way is bigger is better and not tails…I will take a German over American, hands down. I am not saying American ones are bad, it is the breeders stupidity and greed.

Freds · Jun 8, 2005

I didn't want to specifically get into Mike, but there are ways to use training collars..... and there are ways to use training collars as I'm sure you've heard.
I'm not talking about a correction "pop" that the Petsmart people teach. I'm talking about breaking a hard case that would otherwise have to be put down by safely (for the handler) showing him that you are boss.

I watched Cesar Milan put a pit on his back last night using the nylon slip lead he always uses. His face might have been "calm assertive", but his hands were talking a different phrase. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

gsxr1100 · Jun 8, 2005

Again, I agree but I have seen dogs do zero all kinds of things with collars on too. Our old police k9 would not even stop unless my old man told him too.

Again, if someone thinks showing a dog who's alpha by pinning on the ground or using a collar to the ground (at certain times and with certain dogs with behavior issues), well good luck. Try that on a dog that IS alpha and he will win over you anyday.

You can watch any person put any dog on there back but when they GET bitten I will laugh since I would not do this. I have seen all kinds of trainers do this-and-that, and they will get bitten sometime since they think they know it all. Then it is the dogs fault too right, because the handler was a moron....

I would love to see any handler put a dog down when it goes kennel crazy; from sending 90% of there life in a kennel. Not gonna happen no matter how good they think they are.

When we brought out dogs to trainer, the trainer was VERY biased to our dogs. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

thegreatrandini · Jun 8, 2005

Well now your better breeders will only breed ofa'd hips to ofa'd hips.. This means they are free from hip displaysia. Here in America you have to wait until a dog is 24 months but the German "a" stamp for hips only requires 12 months of age. No matter what you do you will somtimes get a dog with sub standard hips. You increase your chance for a good set of hips if both his parents have good hips.. It does not matter if it is a German bred dog or an American bred dog.
If you got a good dog and your happy with it I doubt you paid too much for it.... Bad breeding is bad breeding but linebreeding is practiced in Germany and has been for over a hundred years with GSD's. If you have two related dogs with qualities that you want the odds of passing on the qualities are better than with less related GSD's. (they are all realated) Out crossing is another good breeders tool and good American breeders often look to Germany for a quality outcross but they are hard to find......Wolves, coyotes etc.. also practice linebreeding through natural selection.... You always find any problems your bloodline has when you linebreed.. If the lines are sound then ok. Every time you out cross you bring in more genes and possibly more problems. The sounder the lines the closer you can breed. This is what good breeders like the German founder of the German Shepherd Dog knew.... Bad breeding is bad breeding. I personally think that only about 10 percent of the pure bred dogs that get bred are worthy of being bred. Sometimes you don't know that until you have bred them....Too many people are breeding dogs. Too many dogs are being bred.... too bad.....But as was mentioned here this is America and every idiot who has a dog may have puppies if they want to......Kitties too....I have a lovely ***** now who is close to completing her Championship. She has good hips and elbows and a reasonable temperment. I doubt if I will breed her.. I just think that there are enough dogs now...Even though her pups would be in high demand and I could recoup the expense of showing her... Even though I have a great Kennel building and only 3 dogs. I just don't think I will breed her..

ducati996 · Jun 8, 2005

( ( The solution to all of these is always the same. The minute your dogs show more than playful aggression, YOU step in, forcefully and firmly put then in their place. Grap them by the scruff of the neck, get right in their face, stare them down and give them a harsh NO.

Dogs need to know YOU are the alpha, and that unacceptable behaviour on their part has consequences. With that concept firmly implanted in their loving but small little heads, they place less importance on their standing within the rest of their "pack" - YOU are the pack leader, and once they understand that, the aggression problems usually dissipate.
)

These words are golden. It is the law of the canine world. In my house I AM the alpha and my wife is number 2 and no one creates a disturbance.

My preferred discipline technique is to flip them over pin them to the ground with your hand firmly around their throat and then yell at them very loudly while showing them lots of teeth. This is how they do it between themselves and is what they understand. If you do it right then no one gets hurt and the pecking order gets maintained. It's not always easy with big dogs but if you can't dominate a big dog then you probably shouldn't own one (IMO).

Treat your dogs like dogs but love them like they are your kids. )

Actually you are to be on top of them by using submission and in between their front and rear legs on their chest. You are using your weight against them. Yelling only confuses them...use commands they know and already understand..
Eventually they resist struggling with you and break down and submit.... - it works and its non-violent which is important...

Cactus · Jun 8, 2005

Whats your take on DDR GSD's ??

Freds · Jun 8, 2005

( Again, if someone thinks showing a dog who's alpha by pinning on the ground or using a collar to the ground )

I was not talking about pinning the dog to the ground...

getut · Jun 9, 2005

Most people fail to realize the main point though. Close tight breeding is the SOURCE of the SPONTANEOUS mutation that caused those problems in the first place. Tight control of lines by good quality breeders can and do only weed out problems that already exist, but do nothing, in fact, even create the new spontaneous problems.

thegreatrandini · Jun 9, 2005

I do not have a SPONTANEOUS reply! Mutation? It is not like you will turn ur dog into a dandilion or grasshopper? Selective breeding can be good or bad. For some reason people want some small dogs to have a big head. The little heads are so big that there is a soft opening to the brain.. This was done with selective breeding! I don't know why these were selected but it could be called a mutation. Not necessarily from inbreeding but linebreeding probabally was used as a tool to get there... I like breeds that resemble wolves a little myself.. I figure nature had a good design........