Do you recycle?

Chuck52 · Sep 19, 2002

Harv,

When I was a kid, my dad owned a flour mill. He had a room where he tossed all the broken pieces of machinery that accumulated. He would let us kids haul a wheelbarrow of that scrap to the local junkyard down the road....as much as we could push ourselves. We'd get a few nickles for the movies and such. Now, when I have scrap metal that isn't anything I can find a use for, it just sits around taking up space. Aluminum cans I recycle. If I had big pieces of scrap metal, I'd probably find uses for them, but it bugs me to put just about any kind of metal scrap in the trash.

Chuck

knucklehead · Sep 20, 2002

Bring it over to my house! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Harv - ever do any casting? Aluminum?

RanchMan · Sep 20, 2002

Chuck52 -

I was simply making the observation that civic recycling seems to be more prevalent in those areas which might be characterized as of a more liberal leaning....In other words, though they might be personally inclined to recycle, they see no need for the government to implement such a plan.

Regardless of the "typical conservative's" view on government being intrusive in one's life, I think it all boils down to a more common human characteristic that crosses political views - Laziness.

If you make it "easy" for someone to participate, they are far more inclined to do so - doesn’t really matter what the “activity” is. (If you can get something done "just as good" with "less effort & cost", 99% of the time, you'll pick it unless there is some other "driving factor" (e.g. exercise, mental challenge, etc.)

Yes, I think that the "typical conservative" is less inclined to take things "at face value" when it comes to "environmental issues" (e.g. does it really save energy to recycle? What are the negative “trade offs?”, etc.) because of all the bunk the radical extremists have (and continue) to promote. (e.g. perceived alignment with "radicals" creates an air of suspicion around oneself.)

But, at the same time, that "average conservative" (or any "sane" person for that matter) doesn't want dirty water, contaminated soils, wildlife eradication, or smog-filled air. I think that's what probably irks a lot of conservative folks to a great degree - just because they are "conservative" doesn't mean they want to waste and destroy the world in which they live. I’m sure there are plenty of “liberals” who toss that can in to the trash instead of the recycle bin even though they want to “save the world.”

Again, make it easy, and you’ll get folks to participate - some because of faith, some because of reason, some because of peer pressure, and some “just because.”

Taylortractornut · Sep 20, 2002

Dads old boss had him doing some dirt work for a trailer plant here and saved them some money so when they had to open a landfill they hired him to run it, They were so busy they would throw makita corless drills away by the box and get a new on to save time and money.2by4's byy the truck load and plywood scraps. Wed give the stuff away but alot of times had to bury it. They recycled metal but then and now it still comes to us. Ive built no telling how many things ive made out of free material. They used to recycle vinyl siding till some iron got in the recylers shredder and ruined it but now they started back again they recycle most cardbord, vinyl and carpet padding.
They tried to grind alot of it for boiler fuel but we quit that too much work hauling in wate tanks to mix with it and the machine was sesitive to some things.
Im like Wroughtn Harv i use all my metal up about 2 times a year i load up my dump truck 3 times and go to the scrap yard and the local scavengers look through it i tell them thers nothing bug enough to use again. Before i leave the scrap yard ive traded in my cash for any other valuables i can find usually have more home than i hauled off.

Chuck52 · Sep 20, 2002

Ranchman,

So does the government have a reasonable role to play in "making it easier"? There are real concerns about the economic benefits of most recycling; if it's such a great idea, why aren't more people making money at it? On the other hand, it's hard, for me at least, to not go with my gut feeling that many kinds of recycling ultimately end up in energy or material savings, or, if nothing more, save landfill space. Should government step in, promote, and even support something like recycling when market forces aren't sufficient to drive the effort?

Chuck

knucklehead · Sep 20, 2002

Chuck, I know you asked Rancho, but I'm not sure they should. You & I share a healthy skepticism of govt control and bureaucracy, and I see nothing but complication coming from it, much like everything else, increasingly including the electric power industry. We could go on about power production, from the foolishness of the NRC to the politicization of more and more power production and delivery issues, but suffice it to say that every time Big Brother has stepped in, things got worse. If we are thinking about conservation of resources, the gov't is the last place I'd turn.

I'm not sure what can be done to increase participation, but it seems that the towns are doing well - and the schools are teaching it /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif, so it would seem that time will find greater participation. It would be nice to know the real science behind it, and be free of political motivations, one way or the other. I'd like to know our efforts are going toward real problems in a politics-free way, whether recycling, or pollution abatement, or drug research, or power production.

Boone · Sep 20, 2002

My cousin has a great business building silage conveyors out of recycled plastic boards.

I love the transfer station versus the old pit dump. The steel drop off section is great for shopping for free steel.

Anonymous Poster · Sep 20, 2002

I'd rather see tax incentives to any company or individual that invents or develops more efficient use of recycled products. You know, stimulate that good ole American ingenuity.

I was in ****** a little over 7 years ago and they were experiencing a large influx of Russian "scientists" and technology "workers". The Israeli company that I was visiting at the time didn't want anything to do with the Russian immigrants because they didn't understand the meaning of work. In Russia, because of their communist system, individual excellence is not rewarded at a level that stimulates creativity and excellence to the level we have here.

I prefer we stimulate the private sector as opposed to turning things over to the govt.

Besides, I don't think the govt has time to be messing with recycling. They still don't have one of those clearly addressed constitutional responsibilities of theirs worked out yet .... protecting our borders. Do that first, then we'll see what we want them to tinker with next.

RanchMan · Sep 21, 2002

Chuck52-

So does the government have a reasonable role to play in "making it easier"?

Depends on the program and the individual's perspective.

Looking at the "bigger picture," it all boils down to what one thinks is "reasonable and necessary" with regards to "appropriate levels" of government participation (or "intrusion" as some would see it) in daily life.

Choose your poison - a.k.a. government program - to discuss with regards to if it is "reasonable" for the government "responsibility" to "make it easier." Depending on the "group" responding vs. the program being discussed, you'll get different responses as to it being "reasonable" or appropriate.

My comment wasn't directed at whether one should or should not participate in a recycling program - for the record, I'm not advocating nor am I bashing existing recycling programs on the whole. I'm sure some "make sense" while others "don't." My comment was really geared toward the "human nature" part of the discussion. If it's easy, and you're encouraged (by whatever pressure is being exerted on you), you're more likely to participate/take action.

Same type of thing with anything that is "free." Even if you don't need or even truly want something, if someone offers you something for free - no strings attached - you are far more likely to take it than not (how many goofy squeeze balls, mouse pads, or other "junk" have you gotten from some promotion, exhibit, etc. only to get home and say "Why the heck did I bring this home???")

There are real concerns about the economic benefits of most recycling; if it's such a great idea, why aren't more people making money at it?

That was actually the point I was making - that some folks (i.e. conservative types) are more inclined to think critically about this subject due to their suspicion of the radical elements associated with environmentalism where those who have no suspicions of such elements (i.e. liberal types) are less inclined to ask such questions on this subject since they don't question the motivations behind the message. (Notice I never used absolutes in these statements, just generalizations.)

This seems to go back to the whole question you stated initially - e.g. are "liberals" more inclined than "conservatives" to recycle. Perhaps - but, not because of the desire for waste, but suspicions/questions as to what the real benefits/drawbacks are. This being said, I still think the biggest factor is ease of participation.

On the other hand, it's hard, for me at least, to not go with my gut feeling...

I'm not saying your "gut" is "correct" or "incorrect" with regards to recycling, but I will say that not all things that seem "intuitive" lead one to the "correct" conclusion (e.g. some things are counterintuitive.) Without facts on the issue, one's "gut" is all one has - but facts trump "feelings."

Should government step in, promote, and even support something like recycling when market forces aren't sufficient to drive the effort?

Well, this is a loaded question (although I'm not questioning your motivation in asking it.) Suffice to say, again, talking "human nature" here, "it depends."

Some will say "yes" - others will say "no." All goes back to what one believes the "correct" (notice I didn't say "right") model of government is. Change the subject (replace "recycling" with "military") and you'll get an entirely different set of answers from the same folks.

I really just don't want to go in to the whole "Recycling is Good" vs. "Recycling is Evil" debate or what my personal beliefs on how much government should intrude/participate in this particular area. Suffice to say, if it is "reasonable & appropriate" based on the specific local situation (e.g. high landfill availability/low landfill availability, high cost for virgin production/low cost for virgin production, high energy/resource consumption for recycling activity/low energy/resource consumption for recycling activity, etc.) my view could change.

Chuck52 · Sep 21, 2002

Ranchman,

Sounds like we can agree that at least some forms of recycling are in the "good" column, and that government might at least play a part in stimulating such activities with tax breaks, etc. By "government", BTW, I was including local county and city governments, which would likely be better able to judge such things as landfill impact. On the other hand, they would have limited ability to affect the commercial viability of some kinds of recycling, and that is where federal government involvement, at least in the form of tax breaks, might be necessary to the ultimate success of the enterprise. I do know that common sense is in part the set of mis-conceptions we all accumulate by the time we're twenty, and that what is intuitively obvious is often factually incorrect. However, I'd bet that as humanity expands and eats it's way through the environment, more and more recycling will move into the "good" column.

Now, given my background in academia, you might also assume I'd think federal programs funding research into recycling would be a good thing. You'd be absolutely correct. I'm flying blind on this one...I haven't done any research in this area, and I don't know anyone who has, but I'd be really surprised if there's not some chemist or chemical engineer somewhere in a university who has NSF funding to study plastic recycling, for instance. Some kinds of research, even research with an apparent industrial application, would not get done in the absence of federal funding.

Chuck

RanchMan · Sep 21, 2002

Chuck52 -

Sounds like we can agree that at least some forms of recycling are in the "good" column

I concur.

and that government might at least play a part in stimulating such activities with tax breaks...including local...

I'll agree with the "might" portion - I suspect that I would "draw the line" differently than you regarding when it would be "appropriate" vs. "inappropriate" - again, all depends on the specific situation and suggested government "help."

However, I'd bet that as humanity expands and eats it's way through the environment, more and more recycling will move into the "good" column.

I'd concur with that too, with regards to finite resources (e.g. not with renewable resources, assuming that a balance is achieved between consumption and production, and as long as recycling such items does not pose a net economic benefit to the consumer.)

Some kinds of research, even research with an apparent industrial application, would not get done in the absence of federal funding.

I agree with the statement, although I'm not sold on the aspect that all, or even a majority, of such governmental research justifies the expense. Seems to me that far too much government $$$ (which is really our money) is spent on absolutely frivolous "research." A few select programs, sure. As much as we have now - no.

Yes, some things simply would not get done without the government. (Anybody who says otherwise is not looking at the "big picture.") Those things are often cost centers and not profit centers, hence why government has to "run with the ball" in those areas instead of the private sector - e.g. the military, for example. However, the government is notorious for being inefficient and about as far from "cost effective" as one can get.

For most things, I believe the free market should determine its "value" instead of the government, but that stance shouldn't seem unusual coming from me. (There are exceptions of course, but I really don't want to go through a laundry list of them.) For some things that don't generate profit but are "necessary", yes, government involvement is "appropriate." Does recycling fit in to this "appropriate" category - maybe - maybe not - just depends on the specific situation.

ejb · Sep 21, 2002

OK, I''ll admint it, I haven't read thru the entire thread, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway...

Recycling is good in concept, but fails int he reality. Any idea how much of that stuff you have meticulously sperated from your trash, washed and carted to the recycling center actual get re-cycle? Not much. I have read story after story after story of incidents where because of the oversupply of recycled material, an awful lot of the stuff just gets thrown into the landfill anyway...which is more wasteful than if you just threw it in in the first place. After all, how much extra clean water and energy did you use to wash your garbage? how much extra gas did you use to cart your stuff to a sperate place?

I do seperate some stuff, but I absolutely refulse to use up perfectly good well water and additional oil to wash something that is going to be recycle...kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? You want to save the environment from the old spagetti jar so you use a few gallons of water and some oil/electricity to heat that water in order to make it clean enough to recycle...nonsense if you ask me.

For me, recycle the obvious stuff and try to save the environment by watching what you buy in the first place...a much better way to save the environment...

Boone · Sep 21, 2002

You want to save the environment from the old spagetti jar so you use a few gallons of water and some oil/electricity to heat that water in order to make it clean enough to recycle...nonsense if you ask me.
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree about what you describe, here is what I do. Buy spagetti in a can. Dump the contents of the can and call the dogs. Give the can to a dog to lick clean, and when the dog is done check to see if anything is still in the can rinse with a little cold water. Is the metal from cans wasted?

Anonymous Poster · Sep 21, 2002

Boone,

Sounds sort of like what my mother-in-law does. The trouble is now the dogs is about 3 times the size it should be. The dumb thing doesn't go outside and run very often ...

.....

... neither does the dog .... /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

gws · Sep 22, 2002

Keep in mind the 3 R's of recycling is
"REDUCE"
"REUSE"
"RECYCLE"

Most people forget the first 2 and think saving cans in a blue box is recycling

Wingnut · Sep 24, 2002

My best example of how well government meddling with recycling comes from Alberta ... and tires. Tires are a problem ... they're a consummable that leave a very large "core" behind.
The Alberta government figured they needed to control tires, since they're breeding grounds for skeeters when abandoned (or collected in government yeards and lying around, surprisingly). And to finance the government effort at recycling tires, they decided to levy a $4 charge per tire (whether you left the tires there or took them home to use for planters).
Surprisingly enough, knowing the general value of government intervention, it was discovered that there was no market for tires. The highly touted - by the radical left - uses such as grinding and putting into road surfacing never happened. Other uses were all total failures. So .... what's now happening to all these $4 tires? Well, the only continued use of them is a use that I'm positive the radical left that lobbied for this program would be 10,000% behind! They're burned for energy at several of the concrete company plants. And the government pays almost the whole $4 per tire to the consuming companies.
I love government intervention .... always takes a bad situation and makes it better .... as long as your definition of "better" matches something Dave Barry would say ...

We need to concentrate more on reuse and "not use" and worry less about recycle - unless, of course, a real market develops (instead of the fake markets which are just high cost welfare programs ... and we're talking corporate welfare here ... much worse than people welfare)

Chuck52 · Sep 24, 2002

Yup. We probably ought to bury all those used tires in carefully marked graves so that at some future date, when all the oil is gone, our descendants will know where to find a rich trove of hydrocarbons.

Chuck

brewerbob · Sep 25, 2002

Wingnut: Since you brought up tires.........With all the vehicles running up and down the highways, and untold number of tires being worn out, how come we're not walking around knee deep in rubber dust???? Hmmmmmmm?
Bob

Wingnut · Sep 25, 2002

do you mean we're not? ... do you mean the EPA is lying to us? .... actually ... I think we're more than ankle deep in all the gators on the road from the trailer retreads!
/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif