Oil & Fuel Diesel Engine operation
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PaulInMi
Silver Member
On a somewhat related note, what is everybodies thoughts on a new tractor that comes from the dealer w 5-10 hours on it. Should i be concerned how the tractor was used or whether proper break-in was done? Thanks ....Paul
Bird
Rest in Peace
PaulInMi, there may be some differences in opinion, but I wouldn't give it a second thought. The dealer had to do some assembly, maybe put a loader on, load it on a trailer for delivery, etc. 5-10 hours seems like a lot for that, but I would just as soon they did run it awhile so if there should accidentally be something wrong with it, they could find it before delivery.
Bird
Bird
RobertN
Super Member
I am in a Fire Apparatus training class right now. They reviewed this issue and concured with your statement. This is from IFSTA First Edition "Pumping Apparatus DRIVER/OPERATOR Manual", page 56:
ENGINE IDLING
Shut the engine down rather than leave it idling for long periods of time. Long idle periods can result in the use of addtional fuel(1/2 gal/hour on fire apparatus), buildup of carbon in injectors, valves, pistons, and valve seats; misfiring because of injector clogging; and damage to turbo shaft seals. When the engine MUST be idled because of extremely cold weather or floodlight operation, set the idle at 900-1100 rpm rather than at lower speeds."
Note the rpm they say; the engines in a fire apparatus run at different RPM than our small tractors. The book instructs the operator to review the department SOP's(Standard Operating Procedures) for each individual apparatus.
So, if we idle these tractors while doing tasks, ect, it is best to run the RPM up a bit. Otherwise they will run cold, and result in deposits in the fuel system and cylinders. There's also the possibility of junk getting in the oil too.
RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif
ENGINE IDLING
Shut the engine down rather than leave it idling for long periods of time. Long idle periods can result in the use of addtional fuel(1/2 gal/hour on fire apparatus), buildup of carbon in injectors, valves, pistons, and valve seats; misfiring because of injector clogging; and damage to turbo shaft seals. When the engine MUST be idled because of extremely cold weather or floodlight operation, set the idle at 900-1100 rpm rather than at lower speeds."
Note the rpm they say; the engines in a fire apparatus run at different RPM than our small tractors. The book instructs the operator to review the department SOP's(Standard Operating Procedures) for each individual apparatus.
So, if we idle these tractors while doing tasks, ect, it is best to run the RPM up a bit. Otherwise they will run cold, and result in deposits in the fuel system and cylinders. There's also the possibility of junk getting in the oil too.
RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif
Bird
Rest in Peace
RobertN, as you say, those trucks have a much slower "idle" than our tractors. My brother runs a 200hp Caterpillar in his truck that is never shut down during the day, and it'll idle at about 650 rpm, but has a knob under the dash so that he can turn it up to a thousand or so when he's parked.
Bird
Bird
scruffy
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Like TomG and Bird, I will fire it up and let it idle for 20-30 seconds to bring up the oil pressure, at which point I too increase the RPM's to 1500. The slight differance is that at that point, (when it settles in at 1500) I will put it in gear and putt around moving to the location I wish to work at. When its had sufficient overall warmup, then I will push it on up to 2400 or thereabouts and have at it. I don't see where light use (moving at 1500rpm w/o load) is going to hurt it in anyway. With my vehicles, it's bring the oil pressure up to normal and I am off, but not 'racing' it until fully warmed up. I've put as much as 210000 on a rig that way w/o problems, but after that 210G miles, it was anyone guess how long I could keep it running w/o something going bad.
JATO_RaT
Veteran Member
In the past, I believe the diesels were kept idling to save wear and tear on starters, relays and batteries. Today, diesels are much easier to start due to improved pumps and injection methods. Remember to that a diesel at idle uses anywhere from a 100:1 to 80:1 parts of air to diesel respectively. A gas engine (stoichiometric engine) whether at idle or full speed always uses a 16:1 proportion. A diesel at full speed uses about 40:1 mixture of air to fuel. This helps explain why diesels typically have improved economy . Compression ratio, higher btu content and combustion duration are also factors.
As far as warm up, get a synthetic oil like Amsoil that maintains viscosity well below temperatures that thicken conventional oils. I am changing the hydraulic oil in my Kubota L4850 with Amsoil hydraulic as it is close to its 400 hr maintenance... Rat
As far as warm up, get a synthetic oil like Amsoil that maintains viscosity well below temperatures that thicken conventional oils. I am changing the hydraulic oil in my Kubota L4850 with Amsoil hydraulic as it is close to its 400 hr maintenance... Rat
Anonymous Poster
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1. I'm running two turbo diesels and have researched the cool down issue. Shutting down prior to allowing the EGT ( Exhaust Gas Temp) to fall to manufacturer's recomendation alows the engine oil which is in contact with the turbo bearings to coke up (fry) in the bearings. This leads to premature turbo failure. I follow the "rules" but if I have worked it hard and it is hot outside it can take over 5 min to cool at idle.
2. It isn't just the "cold" start that is the engine killer. It is the dry start. Cummins recommends that if you let equipment set for weeks without runing that you install a special switch to permit you to defeat the "fuel enable" (or wording to that effect) solenoid when cranking until oil pressure comes up then add fuel and get a start. This is a good idea but read on. You can do better (or do both). From what I have read in light truck and automobile operations "DRY" starts are responsible for 50-80% of engine wear. Of course this is weighted in favor of short haul operation not interstate long haul commerce or all day heavy load plowing or similar. If compact tractors have long periods of inactivity and or many startups for the number of hours of run time then you could extend engine life considerably with some sort of pre-luber. I know of two approaches to prelubing. One is an electric motor driven oil pump that you use to obtain full oil pressure prior to starting the engine so you NEVER have a dry start. This is used in marine applications as well as trucks. I installed one in my diesel PU. It had an automatically timed post run (at engine sut down) function as well. You could set the time you wanted it to run after shut down to cool the turbo thus avoiding the long idle period waiting for the EGT to drop W A Y down.
3. I got the plans off the net from the manufacturer of a preluber (That's right if you didn't want to buy his unit you coulld build your own from his plans with his blessing, parts list, diagrams, etc!) It was a clever, fairly simple, and not too costly approach. Basically it used a propane torch fuel bottle as a pressure vessel/oil reservoir. You could make a fancy version with solenoid valves and electronic timers etc. or a simple manual/mechanical version that was pretty simple and should do the job. You put an inline valve (petcock) between the gas bottle and the output of the oil pump and add an extra pint or quart of engine oil to the crankcase. When the oil pressure is up to its highest reading after starting the unit you open the valve and let oil flow into the container, compressing the air in the container. If you save the cost of a pressure gauge T'd into the tank entrance just wait until you guess the pressure is equalized and close the valve thus trapping oil and compressed air in the propane bottle. Of course the bottle is mounted vertically with the oil supply tubing at the bottom (where you drilled the hole and welded the nipple) and the schrader valve thingy at the top so you can add air when you need to over time as air is dissapated. Now for the fun (engine protection) part. Just before you crank the engine (uhh err ahh, engage the starter) open the valve at the bottom of the propane tank. The trapped compressed air in the tank forces the oil out of the tank into the places it will go later when the oil pressure would have built up. This lubricates things before they start rotating and grinding on each other prior to oil pressure building up. when the sound of oil being squirted to the right places begins to subside. Engage the starter for a slick start, sans metal to metal grinding. No dry starts, so you get extended engine life, money saved A N D it is cheap and simple to build and use. It ain't rocket science. It should provide a good ROI (return on investment)
2. It isn't just the "cold" start that is the engine killer. It is the dry start. Cummins recommends that if you let equipment set for weeks without runing that you install a special switch to permit you to defeat the "fuel enable" (or wording to that effect) solenoid when cranking until oil pressure comes up then add fuel and get a start. This is a good idea but read on. You can do better (or do both). From what I have read in light truck and automobile operations "DRY" starts are responsible for 50-80% of engine wear. Of course this is weighted in favor of short haul operation not interstate long haul commerce or all day heavy load plowing or similar. If compact tractors have long periods of inactivity and or many startups for the number of hours of run time then you could extend engine life considerably with some sort of pre-luber. I know of two approaches to prelubing. One is an electric motor driven oil pump that you use to obtain full oil pressure prior to starting the engine so you NEVER have a dry start. This is used in marine applications as well as trucks. I installed one in my diesel PU. It had an automatically timed post run (at engine sut down) function as well. You could set the time you wanted it to run after shut down to cool the turbo thus avoiding the long idle period waiting for the EGT to drop W A Y down.
3. I got the plans off the net from the manufacturer of a preluber (That's right if you didn't want to buy his unit you coulld build your own from his plans with his blessing, parts list, diagrams, etc!) It was a clever, fairly simple, and not too costly approach. Basically it used a propane torch fuel bottle as a pressure vessel/oil reservoir. You could make a fancy version with solenoid valves and electronic timers etc. or a simple manual/mechanical version that was pretty simple and should do the job. You put an inline valve (petcock) between the gas bottle and the output of the oil pump and add an extra pint or quart of engine oil to the crankcase. When the oil pressure is up to its highest reading after starting the unit you open the valve and let oil flow into the container, compressing the air in the container. If you save the cost of a pressure gauge T'd into the tank entrance just wait until you guess the pressure is equalized and close the valve thus trapping oil and compressed air in the propane bottle. Of course the bottle is mounted vertically with the oil supply tubing at the bottom (where you drilled the hole and welded the nipple) and the schrader valve thingy at the top so you can add air when you need to over time as air is dissapated. Now for the fun (engine protection) part. Just before you crank the engine (uhh err ahh, engage the starter) open the valve at the bottom of the propane tank. The trapped compressed air in the tank forces the oil out of the tank into the places it will go later when the oil pressure would have built up. This lubricates things before they start rotating and grinding on each other prior to oil pressure building up. when the sound of oil being squirted to the right places begins to subside. Engage the starter for a slick start, sans metal to metal grinding. No dry starts, so you get extended engine life, money saved A N D it is cheap and simple to build and use. It ain't rocket science. It should provide a good ROI (return on investment)
scruffy
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Patrick,
If you can find that link, don't be shy! Post it! We have a whole bunch of tinkerers around here that will take it and play with it.
Thanks!
If you can find that link, don't be shy! Post it! We have a whole bunch of tinkerers around here that will take it and play with it.
Thanks!
Billc
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PaulInMi, I'm with Bird, don't worry about the 10 hours on your tractor.
I bought mine used with 60 or so hours on it. The guy had bought the tractor to dig a basement. You just know the guy didn't give two shakes as to the engine break-in. Anyway, the dealer agreed with me but said the engine was such a good engine he didn't have any concerns. Have had the tractor for coming up on a year with out one problem, and I've used the trator very hard.
So no worries.
I bought mine used with 60 or so hours on it. The guy had bought the tractor to dig a basement. You just know the guy didn't give two shakes as to the engine break-in. Anyway, the dealer agreed with me but said the engine was such a good engine he didn't have any concerns. Have had the tractor for coming up on a year with out one problem, and I've used the trator very hard.
So no worries.
TomG
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Bird, I agree. I just crack the throttle for starts during the summer. However, It gets real cold here in the winter, and starting with the throttle 1/2 - 3/4 open helps cold weather starts. It's sort of like a diesel choke, which gives an initial big shot of fuel. I try to knock back the throttle to 800 rpm until the oil pressure comes up as quick as I can.
Of course, you probably don't have to deal with cold weather starts--block heaters, battery blankets, magnetic heaters fuel gelling etc. Lucky you.
Of course, you probably don't have to deal with cold weather starts--block heaters, battery blankets, magnetic heaters fuel gelling etc. Lucky you.
TomG
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Many tractors have the kill switch on the throttle. There is no idle adjustment as such, because full off with the throttle kills the engine. The idle speed is just what low throttle setting is used. Somebody mentioned a specific idle adjustment screw. Tractors fitted with a separate kill switch probably have an adjustable throttle stop.
Anonymous Poster
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Scruffy
Try www.prelube.com
Try www.prelube.com
Bird
Rest in Peace
TomG, you're right. My B7100 "kill switch" was just pulling the throttle lever all the way back. There was a "detent" so you knew when you were all the way to idle without killing the engine. Now the B2710 kill switch is the "ignition?/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif" key.
And what do you mean <font color=blue>you probably don't have to deal with cold weather starts</font color=blue>? I used my tractor two days last winter when it 35 degrees outside./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Bird
And what do you mean <font color=blue>you probably don't have to deal with cold weather starts</font color=blue>? I used my tractor two days last winter when it 35 degrees outside./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Bird
scruffy
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TomG, take a look at the url listed. The item looks like a good cold weather advantage! Add a little heat tape around the bottle, and you have a good oil heater to supply preheated oil to your engine prior to startup. Course the item is a little pricey, but home built would reduce that factor considerably.
TomG
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I've been off-line with a down computer for about a week, so I couldn't extend my sympathy to people who live in frigid Texas. Of course, my sympathy is a little weak. In a few weeks 35F will be about the warmest day we have here through March. Here, a cold weather start means -20F or so. On the other hand, I do know that Texas isn't tropical, and I do remember freezing my 'what-ever' off in Amarillo once.
I couldn't see a link in Scruffy's comment, but I have seen some pretty fancy pre-warming stuff. Actually, I get by OK with a block heater, battery blanket and 2 magnetic heaters for the transmission. It starts maybe even easier than during the summer. Of course, I don't have to start it often when it's really cold because it doesn't snow much then.
To help with starts, I just cleaned the battery terminals and ground cable connections. It cut my pre-heat time about in half and sped up the starter speed as well. Cleaning the battery is good to help with cold starts, and it's probably is a good idea even for people in sub-arctic Texas.
For my computer down time, it would have been a help to read the W98 section on trouble-shooting. I wasn't aware of all the stuff in Windows that I needed to cure my problem. I could have fixed it in a 1/2-hour rather than a week. Guess I've been spending too much time studying on tractor stuff. Anyway, I hope you enjoy your winters and aren't too envious of my snow removing chores. Actually, I really don't like cold much. Cold is just the price of being here, which I am by choice.
I couldn't see a link in Scruffy's comment, but I have seen some pretty fancy pre-warming stuff. Actually, I get by OK with a block heater, battery blanket and 2 magnetic heaters for the transmission. It starts maybe even easier than during the summer. Of course, I don't have to start it often when it's really cold because it doesn't snow much then.
To help with starts, I just cleaned the battery terminals and ground cable connections. It cut my pre-heat time about in half and sped up the starter speed as well. Cleaning the battery is good to help with cold starts, and it's probably is a good idea even for people in sub-arctic Texas.
For my computer down time, it would have been a help to read the W98 section on trouble-shooting. I wasn't aware of all the stuff in Windows that I needed to cure my problem. I could have fixed it in a 1/2-hour rather than a week. Guess I've been spending too much time studying on tractor stuff. Anyway, I hope you enjoy your winters and aren't too envious of my snow removing chores. Actually, I really don't like cold much. Cold is just the price of being here, which I am by choice.
scruffy
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TomG,
sorry, here's the url. www.prelube.com
sorry, here's the url. www.prelube.com
MChalkley
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I scrolled through this thread looking for who wanted info on pre/post-lubers and why, but it wasn't readily apparent. At any rate, I've had one on my '93 Dodge Cummins W250 since '94 and have been very pleased with it. I'll be happy to answer any questions.
MarkC
MarkC
Here are some similar links:
