Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up

/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #1  

biochemist3773

New member
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
6
Location
near Bowling Green KY
Tractor
Deutz Agroplus 67 Kubota MX5000
I have a 2008 Deutz Agroplus 67 with 250 hours on it. I just bought it from a dealer with warranty. I am concerned about a lot of smoke at start up that lasts for a few min. I am told by the dealer this is normal of these engines. It does not smoke much if any when warm just the first few min. after startup. If there is an internal engine issue I want to get it taken care of soon. Does anyone have any feedback on this? Is a large amount of smoke normal? He did indicate that the tractor had been "turned up" whatever that means. Thanks for you help.
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #2  
I have a 30 kW 30 hp 3 cylinder Deutz generator, It smokes a bit when first starts, but goes away when warm.
Is it hard to start? you maybe getting a bit of leak down from the injectors in the off cycle.
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Thanks Nike, no it is not hard to start, actually it starts pretty easy but I have noticed that if you try to rev. up the engine right away in the smoke event it will miss a bit. I have heard Deutz engines are not good cold starters. It's pretty much a new engine so it should not have any wear yet.
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #4  
Please check the cetane required by your fuel. Many newer deutz engines require a cetane additive with the fuel we have here. It affects the smoke when the engine is cold and the performance when its under full load too.
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #5  
Hi, don't know if you have had any further luck with this problem?
We are a Deutz dealer over here in Australia, smoke from an agroplus is not normal especially with only 250 hours on it. First up what colour is the smoke? Also how old is the diesel? Diesel does deteriorate over time, it would also be worth checking your fuel filter? At 250 hours it should have been changed? Are you noticing any loss of power from the engine?

Also just one other point, the agroplus actually has a SAME (pronounced sar-may) engine in it, don't get the Deutz engine until the agrofarm range

Cheers
Andrew
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #6  
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Thanks for your reponse, I have learned a bit more about the tractor since I bought it. the biggest problem was the dealer did a really bad job of showing me anything about the tractor or preparing it for sale. If the glow light illuminates and its activated the tractor starts ok and smokes very little, it will continue to flash a bit after the tractor has started. I have also found that the tires had about 50 psi of pressure in them, should have been around 20. Also none of the filters had ever been changed which I was told they were. Bascially the dealer does not represent the brand very well. I am a bit disappointed the quality as well. Just curious if the dealer reads this again what his opinion of the SAME engines compared to the Deutz are? It's unfortunate you think your buying one thing when your actually buying another. I have the overall impression I have bought a tractor of lower quality. I hope it proves me wrong. Your honest input is appreciated.
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #8  
50 psi in the tires!?!?! WTF?
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #9  
Hi Biochemist,

Good to hear you have found the problem, it's unfortunate when dealers don't do their job, we get a bit of that round our way aswell, and unfortunately it does a big disservice to the brand they are selling.

Good catch on the tyres!, the general rule of thumb is if you position your rear tyre with one lug pointing straight down, the lug either side should just be touching the ground, this normally equates to around 15-20psi, Basicly traction is the main thing you want, so the more lugs on the ground the better (obviously don't go to low or you could pop the tyre off the rim!)

Not Glowing (pre heating) the engine make's a lot of sense as to the smoke, I didn't think of that, as we don't normally get cold temperatures over here (it's unusual to get a day below 20ーC! even in the middle of winter)

Filter changes can make a huge difference to the running of the tractor and the longevity of parts, They are reasonably cheap (Compared to a part failure) so I would do them at least once a year or every 300hr, If it's done 250hr and has never had a filter change, it probably means it hasn't had it's first 50hr & 100hr run-in service? if not I'd do these asap! The engines come with run-in oil so the 50hr service is a critical one.

Don't be disappointed in the tractor or brand, SAME - Deutz-Fahr are probably one of the best tractor brands out there, they are actually the same company and have different brand names for different countries. For example in Italy you will only hear of SAME, in Switzerland you will only hear of H?limann and in other parts of europe Lamborghini is the King pin, For Germany and the rest of the world Deutz is the name you can trust, Deutz are the people behind the design and Deutz are where the technology stems from, however Deutz have really only focused on the 112+hp market, so anything smaller has always been SAME technology. At the end of the day, it the same company, same engineers and same testing tracks, the only thing that changes is where the unit is built and what colour it is.

For a bit of history, SAME were actually the people who invented 4WD on tractors and pioneered Power shift transmissions, and until the patent ran out recently everyone else has had to come up with inferior design copies, Deutz on the other hand have also had a long heritage as a top quality brand, Deutz started mass building tractors back in 1927, but more importantly invented the 4 stroke engine back in 1864. Back in 1995 SAME & Deutz-Fahr merged, to create the super power we know today. The technology, Reliability & power in these tractors are un-match by anything else on the market!
If you want to have a good read of their history have a look at

History

and for more about the mother company

Home

As for the Agroplus, It's a shame the dealer didn't give you more information, but the SAME engine's up to 100hp are some of the best in the world (even better than the Deutz in that range. They are built in Italy in there Treviglio Plant (unlike most other manufactures who out source parts from china) so they are quality European Engines, they are rock solid! in fact to tell you a side story, just the other day we had an old Frutteto 85 come into the workshop for it's yearly service, this tractor has 7500hours on it and has only every had standard service done (i.e. no major parts replaced) anyway as we had the Dyno set up, we thought we would see what it could do, so we through it on, and to our surprise it quiet happily managed 78hp @ PTO, (it's rating new is only 75hp) I don't know to many tractors that are able to boast those kind of stat's at that age!

So really, you've got a first class tractor, with Heritage other brands can only dream about. As long as it's looked after it will last you many many year to come!

Cheers
Andrew
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up
  • Thread Starter
#10  
Thanks Andrew for taking the time to post such detailed reply. I only wish you were our dealer locally. I have not doubt the locals are glad to have you and I suspect your business will do just fine in good times and bad. Service makes a big difference.

In all fairness, it's hard to get good service in any of the brands around here. I have heard horror stories about New Holland, Kubota and yes even big green...John Deere, so if the tractor is built well to begin with that gives me some comfort. I am likeing it a bit better as I learn more about it.

I have already changed the oil filter (it was really tight but finally got it off) and the oil, replaced with 15W-40 Shell Diesel Oil. I have a new fuel filter but I am a bit afraid of changing it due to getting air in the system. I have a diesel car (VW Jetta) and I fill the new fuel filter with diesel and change it out and have not had a problem but the last time I changed the fuel filter on my Kubota tractor (used the same concept, filled the new filter with diesel up to the top and mounted the filter vertically, the Deutz diesel fuel filter is also vertical) but I did have a problem with the Kubota starting, it finally did but took a bit. I am just curious if the Deutz has a primer or pump on the fuel system. I see a small button like device up near the front which I am pretty sure is part of the fuel system and it appears you can push it down. I suspect this is a primer but dont see it mentioned in the manual anywhere.

I know the oil change is the most critical which has happened now, the fuel filter when clogged I think just shows up in running issues more than engine damage until finaly it will not run right at all (thats the case with my car anyway). Your thoughts on fuel filter replacement is really appreciated.

By the way, this forum is really nice. I feel like I have connected with someone half a world away and that someone in their own strange way has given me a bit of peace of mind. This was a big purchase for me and at first I was almost sick about it now I feel a lot better as time goes on. Thanks to you for your advice and help. Come to Kentucky and visit TC Farms sometimes Andrew.
Cheers
Ron
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #11  
Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, Yes it would be nice if more dealers went out of there way, old fashioned service is what it's about!, unfortunately round our neck of the woods it not the case as big corporations take over dealerships and it all becomes about making money, rather than turning 'Clients' into Friends!, fortunately for us, we are owned and run by the same family that started the business back in 1982 so the old fashioned values are a big part of what we do and what we sell. We are very picky about what we sell, and as I say, I won't sell anything I wouldn't be happy buying myself, We are more interested in getting repeat business than one of sales & margin.

Anyway glad your liking you tractor more and more each day. once you've been using it for a few years, you'll realise there is nothing that can compete with it!

As for the fuel filter, the process is similar to your VW, in that fill the filter with clean fuel and screw it on, Page 195 > 198 in your operators manual document the process, it also goes into bleeding the fuel system if you do get air in it.

One point I need to stress, These engine's have HIGH PRESSURE Bosch pumps & injectors, because of this DO NOT crack/loosen the fuel lines to the injectors or from the pumps, Because of the high pressure they run at, the fittings have One time use only copper seals, and you will not be able to seal them again it they get loosened.
Generally because of the fact it is a high pressure system, bleeding is quite easy, normally you can just leave the engine turning over for a while and it will fire up, (Being careful not to over heat the starter motor). If that doesn't work then follow the bleeding instructions in your manual. If you don't have these pages in your manual PM me with your email add and I'll send them to you.

Oil change is the most critical, but seeing as you don't know the true history it's worth doing the fuel & hydraulic filters as well, and yes your right a clogged fuel filter will eventually stop the engine, or reduce performance my feeling are that as filters are cheap, its good preventative maintenance, There would be nothing worse than a clogged filter breaking up and a pice of dirt getting stuck in the pump or injector, Seen this happen way to many time's on Sprayers and Hydraulics!

Glad I have been able to help, No plans to head to the US at the momment, but when we do I'll let you know!

Cheers
Andrew
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up
  • Thread Starter
#12  
Hi Andrew,
Once more thanks, yes if you would not mind and have a way to do so send me copies of the bleeding procedure. Thanks for the advice about the lines. I assume the high pressure leads to more efficiency in the burning process. If you could send me a copy of the bleeding procedure to my email address at wkrafun@aol.com I would really appreciate that.

I am not sure I have the right manual, the pages you referenced dont seem to match mine and there is not detailed protocol for bleeding the fuel system.

Anyhow once more thanks!
Cheers
Ron
wkrafun@aol.com
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #13  
Hi Ron,
I've go to shoot up to the big smoke for the weekend, so wont be back at my desk till monday, so will send through the pages then.

But the long and the short of it;
On top of the Filter housing, there is a Bleed Screw, looks more like a bolt head, basically crack this and manually pump the fuel pump untill you get bubble-free fuel to come through. while you've got free fuel flowing, close the bleeder, tractor should then start.

The high pressure Fuel systems allow a few benefits, over say a Common rail.
Firstly you have individual pumps on each injector, this allows very precise control of fuel entering the engine by the ECU, it also allows the ecu do to something cleaver, if you have a blocked injector or pump failure, it can shut that pump/cyl down, meaning the engine can keep operating, obviously with less power, but get's you out of the field and back to the shed! The High pressure also use's very little fuel if you were to crack one of the injector fuel pipe (Don't do it) you would find almost no fuel coming out. It's this system coupled with the advanced Engine Management that make the SAME & Deutz engine so fuel efficient. Even the bigger Deutz engine, which switch to Common Rail systems , have Dual Pump common Rail to achieve similar results.

Anyway, got a big drive in the morning so need to head to bed!
Have a good weekend!
Andrew
 
/ Deutz Agroplus Smoke at start up #14  
TIER 2 Same engines were known for smoking white at startup, and also smoking black if you dont put low sulfur diesel in it.

Same engines cant touch the old FL912 and FL913 air cooled Deutz engines, but those arent made anymore because of emissions. With the current water cooled Deutz engines, i wouldnt concider the Same a lesser engine anymore...
 

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