desperate need advice on water issue

[Cade]

My crawlspace is about 5' high with a gravel/dirt floor. There is a vapor barrier about 4 inches under the gravel/ground. I live in the poconos with rocky/clay soil. There is a gradual slope towards my house limitting me on what could be done because my septic tanks and sand mound are to the rear of the house/the same area that the ground slopes towards the house. My crawlspace would flood during heavey rains, water pouring through the block walls. The condensation was so bad that the insulation in the ceiling of the crawlspace was saturated and dripping. The joists/rim and plates were wet. The pipes were dripping wet etc. I waterproofed the walls, closed the vents and put in a dehumidifier. (the previous owners ran an electric heater , I can't afford to pay that electric bill). I dug a french drain on the back and one side of the house (thanks to the Kubota). The drain was about three feet wide and down to the footer. I put in 4" coorigated pipe and filled the trench with 2b stone. I have a swale about 40 feet from the back of the house to direct runoff away from the house and I also dug to additional ditches at the rear of my property line. All this and I still have a water issue. The water is coming from underneath because the water table is high....I have an artesian well and the water is coming out the top of the pipe so I know the table is high. It hasn't rained in about 5 days and my sump pumps are still kicking out water every 45 seconds....they are in a 5 gall bucket dug the height of the bucket into the ground. What else could/or should I do? I want to get this problem fixed! I am debating on digging around the remainder of the house, which would include ripping up my macadem driveway, to continue the french drain. I don't know if this would help though. DO you think that it would help if I dug a bigger sump pit, dug in 4'' corrigated pipe on the interior of the crawlspace and then concreted the floor?

 

[gordon21]

Your septic sysytem is higher than the house??

It sounds as though your problem is excessive water pressure within the ground itself. If the bottom of your crawlspace is actually below the top edge of the water table, then that will require you to drop the surface of the ground all around the house. You may need to slope away from the edge of the house and downward into a new swale at least 2' lower.

How much water do you use per day? If your drain field is close by and is dumping 300+gallons per day, that will be a big part of your problem. That water may be sheeting towards the house instead of soaking down into the ground. Is there a clay base under the drain field? If there is, it is acting like an impermeable layer and the water will migrate laterally just below the surface. Water can move sideways under ground if there is clay under it. the water could be going down only a foot or two and then moving sideways. One daily shower could be 30-50 gallons. A washer can use use 40+ gallons of water. 40 gallons of water is a LOT. That much water could easily saturate 3-4 cubic yards of dirt. Several showers, a dishwasher, etc could be enough water to saturate 40 cubic yards. That could be an area 15'x30' by almost 2.5' deep.

Most modern building codes require the drain field to be lower if possible and at least 75' from a house.

 

[Eagleview]

I had a simillar problem with my house site . We have clay 4' down with sand on top . The water migrates through the sand on top of the clay and leaches out at the house pad cutting . You will need to mark out a trench line and clear off the topsoil with a mud bucket on the excavator and then cut a trench in the clay with a 1' bucket up the slope from the house , your slope will determin how deep you need to go to get good fall . Cut the trench on a bit of an angle across the slope to make the water run in the desired direction . Fill the trench with 3/4 blue metal or simillar and some permiable cloth on top to stop the trench silting up which i find the corrogated pipe does even with the sock and then backfill . The water that runs on top of the clay will drop into the trench you've dug into the clay and will run away . Once its in the clay trench it can't leach through the clay walls and will take the easiest path , through the metal and away . As you can see my trench in the clay is filling with water as fast as i can dig it . (keep in mind where your septic absorbtion trench and any utilities are when planing this)

 

[Cade]

gordan and Iron horse,

I forgot to mention that I put foundation coating on the two sides of the house and then doubled plastic w/ a reinforced mesh which is for protecting the foundation wall during backfill.

Gordan21
are you saying that the swale should be 2' lower than the ground at the side of the house? The excess water from the faucets/showers and laudry run into the septect tank. The tank when full gets pumped to the sand mound which is about 50 yards to the rear of my house. At the base of the mound to the back of my house the ground is 2/1/2 to 3' higher. I am considering installing a drain field for the laundry line to the front of the house, which happens to be the lowest area of my property.

I do have a lower spot at the rear of the house that the water pools and eventually runs down the swale. This area is void of any grass and is mostly ground and a few trees. I am not sure if it an underground spring or what. I plan on taking out the trees, removing the rocks and digging a french drain from the middle of the property and also into the swale.

I know when we dug the ditch on the back of the house it was a mess. We had to hand dig it because of an overhead deck. We hand dug it at least 6times because the wall would crash in even after being shored. The clay ground was sticky like cement after a rain. The hydrostatic pressure of the water was amazing.

What I did made a significant difference, however more improvement is needed. I noticed that the plates are damp in a few spots, the joists are dry and the outer rim joist on one side is also damp. The interior walls had condensation on them. The block walls were holding water inside them so I had holes drilled into them at the footer line. The water drained out and I hope that will help to prevent the condensation on the walls and the plates from being wet. It doesn't help that it is too cold for the dehumidifier to run.

The way my property slop is does not lend itself to pitching the ground away from the house on the rear of the house. I guess it doesn't help that drainage ditches do not exsist in the area.

 

[Eagleview]

Have a look at the photo i supplied in the last post . If a trench like this wont take the water away your house is sitting on a geyser . Remember you can create your own fall by digging from shallow to deep .

 

[Cade]

yeah, I was checking them out. I want your excavator, enduro, and the stump/root ripper. I can't get over all that sand!

 

[Eagleview]

Yeah , this is the source of all that sand . A 300' sandstone escarpment out the backdoor of the pole frame house i built . The sandstone has eroded over the millenia and deposited the sand down the slope . You can imagine the water troubles i had to manage . But the upside is , we do'nt have any neighbours . I just had a thought , if you install another septic tank at the end of the new trench to catch the water you could pump or syphon the water from the tank and away .

 

[davitk]

The block walls were holding water inside them so I had holes drilled into them at the footer line. The water drained out and I hope that will help to prevent the condensation on the walls and the plates from being wet. It doesn't help that it is too cold for the dehumidifier to run.

As part of your solution, seal the top of those blocks with styrofoam, that will remove a source of moisture and make a big difference in the dampness.

 

[Cade]

Iron Horse, nice pic. It is hard to tell in the pic, but it looks like a nice wall/cliff. How far is that from your building?

davitk,
That is a great idea! I will try the blow in insulation like GREAT STUFF for the block.I was going to fill the block w/cement but your idea is better. I was going to get the blow on insulation for the walls and I am sure that the insulation is water resistant and mold/mildew resistant. Now, how about the water coming from underground?

 

[davitk]

I have the same problem; was hoping you could tell me

 

[Cade]

well maybe someone else can shed some light on this issue for both of us. Thanks again!

 

[Eagleview]

Cade, the cliff is only 100' from the house , i hope its far enough to bog any boulders in the sand before they get to me . This picture is the view from the front of the house , as you can see the sand flows into the valley . Ive got a 62'X12' covered verandah but could'nt see the stars at night so i added this "Star Deck" for that purpose .

 

[Cade]

that is awesome. That is like a freaking post card!

 

[WarrenF]

Don't know if this will add anything to the discussion....but here goes.

If it is possible, on the downslope side of your home, hire a directional boring company to bore underneath your home with perforated pipe. That will allow the water to weep out. I keep remembering a lesson I learned many years ago....you can never STOP water, all you can do is divert it.

 

[rimshot]

My crawlspace is about 5' high with a gravel/dirt floor. There is a vapor barrier about 4 inches under the gravel/ground. I live in the poconos with rocky/clay soil. There is a gradual slope towards my house limitting me on what could be done because my septic tanks and sand mound are to the rear of the house/the same area that the ground slopes towards the house. My crawlspace would flood during heavey rains, water pouring through the block walls. The condensation was so bad that the insulation in the ceiling of the crawlspace was saturated and dripping. The joists/rim and plates were wet. The pipes were dripping wet etc. I waterproofed the walls, closed the vents and put in a dehumidifier. (the previous owners ran an electric heater , I can't afford to pay that electric bill). I dug a french drain on the back and one side of the house (thanks to the Kubota). The drain was about three feet wide and down to the footer. I put in 4" coorigated pipe and filled the trench with 2b stone. I have a swale about 40 feet from the back of the house to direct runoff away from the house and I also dug to additional ditches at the rear of my property line. All this and I still have a water issue. The water is coming from underneath because the water table is high....I have an artesian well and the water is coming out the top of the pipe so I know the table is high. It hasn't rained in about 5 days and my sump pumps are still kicking out water every 45 seconds....they are in a 5 gall bucket dug the height of the bucket into the ground. What else could/or should I do? I want to get this problem fixed! I am debating on digging around the remainder of the house, which would include ripping up my macadem driveway, to continue the french drain. I don't know if this would help though. DO you think that it would help if I dug a bigger sump pit, dug in 4'' corrigated pipe on the interior of the crawlspace and then concreted the floor?

===========

Forget about a concrete floor in that crawl space. I think you need to go after the cause for this problem and forget about the effects.

You mentioned that some of your land slopes to and from the house. In order for your french drain to do you any good at all in that situation, it will have to be slightly below the top of your footing. I'm talkling about the elevation of the top of your 4" or 6" perforated pipe.That might mean excavating quite deeply especially on the upside grade as you encircle the house. The closer that ditch is to the house foundation the better. If at all possible install the 4 or preferably 6" perforated pipe in a peastone bedded field around your footing and just below that level for the sake of your crawl space. This might mean taking out the deck, steps and sidewalk. Now you have mentioned that you have sump pumps in five gal buckets and naturally this is reason enough for the pumps to short cycle. You would have a distinct advantage if you had to use these pumps that you procure a standard 20-30 gallon sump and replace those 5 gallon buckets. Those things actually can obstruct the float causing the pump to not turn on as levels rise.

Now, having talked about using these pumps,let's talk about eliminating them. It sounds like you might have a situation where you could run the water from inside your house to daylight. In order to consider that option, you have to connect the inside footing drain system to the outside drain, and then continue the flow by draining this ground water to the the lower grade side of your property. Does the grade on one side continue it's decline any where?

Anyone building a foundation at your venue should have left at least one 4" opening from inside the dammed up crawl space to outside...........I know they probably didn't, right? In that case,you would have to cut through a portion of the footing with a diamond concrete blade to accomodate a 4" pipe teeing the inside and outside runs together. It is a big job but in many applications it's dooable but involves all kinds of work.

Lastly, you mentioned you closed the vents. Sorry to say this but that is the last thing that your foundation needs. Floor joists someday will need replacing if you don't ventilate wet crawl spaces.

Lot's of work? Yes! Do you need a perfect world to facilatate all my suggestions? Yes, you will but should still be dooable in some form and you can't expect to continue on with ground water that very likely contains effluent in your crawl space.

Plus.........you asked so here's wishing you the best with your project.

rimshot

 

[Cade]

warrenf......the problem is that i do not have enough slope to have the pipe make it to ground level.

 

[Cade]

rimshot,


I do have the perf. pipe at the base of the footer on the back of the house and have it pitched from the back along one side of the house and then eventually to the ground level. I guess I may have too do the side of the house and the front of the house with a french drain also.

I do plan on digging in a bigger sump pump tank this spring. Something big enough for 3 sumps.

It would be great if I could dig a trench on front of the house and then eventually under the footer. From inside the crawlspace I could continue the trench so that the water drains out. I could contunue the french drain to the front of the property and then make a large/deep pit of stone for the water to leach out. I know I don't have enough pitch to get the drain pipe to the surface. Plus, the front of my property is lower than at the road.

closing the vents or allowing them open is a long debate that I looked into prior to doing it. I can tell you this, I used to have them open with a large fan. The condensation on the walls near the bilco was amazing. The temp difference was too much. I closed the vents and put in the dehumidifier and it did make a difference. Really. if I don't stop the water coming in it will not matter if the vents are closed or open because the potential rot/damage.

Thanks for the advice. I will let you know when/what I start with. The ground is a mess from the snow melting and the rain. Plus I have to get my roof shingled before I start with this crawlspace issue. Always something.

 

[Cade]

I am still trying t figure out a few things on this issue. It will be a major undertaking and expense if I have to continue the french drain along the opposite side of the house and the front of the house. I will have to remove part of the driveway and the take out the entire covered front porch. Do you think that if I dug a french drain on the interior walls of the french drain would help?. I could continue the french drain under the footer, and then to the low spot of the property with a large pit filled with stone would work? I am thinking that if this doesn't work than I could suck it up and do the french drain around the outside of the rest of the house.

 

[rimshot]

rimshot,





closing the vents or allowing them open is a long debate that I looked into prior to doing it. I can tell you this, I used to have them open with a large fan. The condensation on the walls near the bilco was amazing. The temp difference was too much. I closed the vents and put in the dehumidifier and it did make a difference. Really. if I don't stop the water coming in it will not matter if the vents are closed or open because the potential rot/damage. (Cade)

===========

Hi Cade,

Fair enough. If you feel you have to close vents do so but only for the below freezing Winter months. But you really should keep a crawl space ventillated during the warmer months. Building codes call X number of vents for every X number of square feet of crawl space. It is good that you have provided a 6 mil visquine base beneath your gravel.

The funny thing about providing what's needed when we are at the foundation building stage of a construction project is that we go at it backwards. In other words, we may excavate in August, the dryer month of the year and the site is dry then it never again sees the light of day when we put a house over it. Then March comes along and the snow melts raising ground water levels so it's now not much more than a damp dungeon with no sunlight or heat as long as it exists. For this reason, I think we should see to it it gets ventilation at the very least in warmer months. Just my .02 cents worth of course you may see it differently.

BTW,if you do bother to increase the size of those sumps in the crawl space and if you don't already have some, you may want to consider some perforated pipe and gravel runs to the sumps. More than likely, one big sump and a trench with wash gravel and a 4" perforated drain running around the interior of the footing and terminating at the sump would be sufficient.

About those tile runs, of course it is best to have a level bed of wash gravel and perforated pipe run at or slightly below the footing grade. In a perfect world could drain away from the house sloping1/8" per foot to daylight or stub out of a hill someplace downhill from your house and continue to run away. Second best thing would be the same 4" drain pipe and wash gravel system only instead of a drain to daylight the water ends up being intercepted in a sump and then pumped up. Hopefully the added elevation would help get rid of the water. But you still have to dump it somewhere and it aint easy always finding a roadside ditch or storm sewer and septic systems can't handle that kind of water either. If you dump it in a hole filled with gravel it sounds to me like you may be recycling it in that your water table is so high. when a foundation for a house in clay soil is excavated it's nearly the same thing as creating a swimming pool. As the water seeks it's level it continues until trapped or can get out of our life. That makes a foundation for a house a potential pool in many situations due to terrain, soil and water table conditions. Sorry you are having to endure this. As for that porch addition, can't you just loop around it rather than to go beneath it?

Hope you can get this thing taken care of. I know these things can play on our minds. Best of luck

rimshot

 

[Cade]

thanks for your advice guys. If you think if anything else please let me know. I will begin this project once it dries out.