/pine
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Craftsmen Who Work With Their Hands
- Thread starter TxDoc
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2LaneCruzer
Epic Contributor
Thanks for that JL; somewhat unexpectedly, I found that to be quite moving.
nybirdman
Super Member
Instead of paying for years of college;I served a five year apprenticeship in the UA Pipefitters and Plumbers.This was totally paid for by the union.
Worked for 42 years;from two man school jobs to nuclear plants with 3,000 fitters.Learned to weld on the job and eventually became a certified welder.
I certainly have not regrets,great pension and full benefits.
I think the country needs to push for more trades people,college is no guarantee of a good paying job.
New York state is even worse;requireing a Regents diploma for all graduates,crazey all kids are going to college.I received a Regents diploma but several of my classmates that didn't ended up as very successful business men and women.
Worked for 42 years;from two man school jobs to nuclear plants with 3,000 fitters.Learned to weld on the job and eventually became a certified welder.
I certainly have not regrets,great pension and full benefits.
I think the country needs to push for more trades people,college is no guarantee of a good paying job.
New York state is even worse;requireing a Regents diploma for all graduates,crazey all kids are going to college.I received a Regents diploma but several of my classmates that didn't ended up as very successful business men and women.
I don't know a ton about an automotive tech salary but I would still think it would be very rare for a tech at the dealer to be making $80,000. At least it seems like from reading online that a lot of techs are making more in the $30-$40,000 range. I think more people would want to be automotive techs if they thought they could make $80,0000.
bumperm
Veteran Member
Education? I left home at 16, didn't even finish high school. There were four siblings,
no father, no welfare back then, and not a lot of choices to my immature mind other than working low paying jobs until I was old enough to sign a declaration of intent to become a citizen so I could enlist in the Navy. . . . over the next 8 years I got educated. What I did have was work ethic, learned that from a fervent desire to afford food and shelter. Being somewhat intelligent helped.
I'm retired now, pushing 70, kids run the small company (25 employees) I founded 35 years ago. I guess I'm proof one can achieve a degree of success without a formal education. I do, however, miss not having had the opportunity to go to college, as I think it would have provided a broader foundation and introduced those things I was unable to glean on my own. I was not a good roll model, as neither of my sons sought higher education, even though dad would have picked up the tab. Oh well.
In spite of what OB might say about the disparity between the haves and have nots, there has always been the opportunity to get ahead if one is willing to work hard. Working smart helps too.
bumper
no father, no welfare back then, and not a lot of choices to my immature mind other than working low paying jobs until I was old enough to sign a declaration of intent to become a citizen so I could enlist in the Navy. . . . over the next 8 years I got educated. What I did have was work ethic, learned that from a fervent desire to afford food and shelter. Being somewhat intelligent helped.
I'm retired now, pushing 70, kids run the small company (25 employees) I founded 35 years ago. I guess I'm proof one can achieve a degree of success without a formal education. I do, however, miss not having had the opportunity to go to college, as I think it would have provided a broader foundation and introduced those things I was unable to glean on my own. I was not a good roll model, as neither of my sons sought higher education, even though dad would have picked up the tab. Oh well.
In spite of what OB might say about the disparity between the haves and have nots, there has always been the opportunity to get ahead if one is willing to work hard. Working smart helps too.
bumper
sld
Veteran Member
Good thread.
I have a college degree and work as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Taking after my dad, I try to do everything myself. Fix things instead of replace, change oil, maintain equipment, etc... I just can't see paying somebody to do these tasks.
There is a big push in my industry to use engineers from India because they are dirt cheap. Most of them are very computer savvy but not so much mechanically. They literally will not know the difference in coarse and fine threads...or even how to size a hole for a fastener.
My buddies and I think that we are more mechanical because we worked on stuff as kids. Bikes, cars, etc....These Indians never did that and it seems to make a difference.
I like my job and the pay but I am always in awe to see a true craftsman at work.
I have a college degree and work as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Taking after my dad, I try to do everything myself. Fix things instead of replace, change oil, maintain equipment, etc... I just can't see paying somebody to do these tasks.
There is a big push in my industry to use engineers from India because they are dirt cheap. Most of them are very computer savvy but not so much mechanically. They literally will not know the difference in coarse and fine threads...or even how to size a hole for a fastener.
My buddies and I think that we are more mechanical because we worked on stuff as kids. Bikes, cars, etc....These Indians never did that and it seems to make a difference.
I like my job and the pay but I am always in awe to see a true craftsman at work.
oldballs
Elite Member
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One of the most impressive things that I've ever witnessed is a professional bricklayer at work. That's a thing of beauty in my mind.
jaotguy
Veteran Member
the government rules and regulations have stopped a lot of "would be" entrepreneurs from starting new businesses ... you have to have a license from the "school of trades" ( a provincial government set up kangaroo club of non trades bean counters).... a money grab , just pay the new yearly fees ...
Plus the provincial business license permit .....
( I'm not saying certification is bad .... just that they are charging an additional large yearly fee to be able to run a business in Ontario ... )
even house painters , patio stone layers , street sweepers , shoe shine boys .... ridiculous money grab !!!!!
being able to work with your hands, exercises different parts of your brain .... and as the saying goes , use it or lose it...
and the more "flexible" , limber and exercised the brain is , the better it works ( as well as the body ) .....
had one boss that could computer program anything you could imagine , but couldn't change a flat tire ...
had a friend that could rebuild and blue print race car engines , but couldn't change a light bulb or fuse ...
neither was stupid , but had different narrow talents ....
I grew up without a lot of cash , if you wanted something , you built it or repaired someone's throw away.... learned a lot along the way ..., and still learning today ....
Plus the provincial business license permit .....
( I'm not saying certification is bad .... just that they are charging an additional large yearly fee to be able to run a business in Ontario ... )
even house painters , patio stone layers , street sweepers , shoe shine boys .... ridiculous money grab !!!!!
being able to work with your hands, exercises different parts of your brain .... and as the saying goes , use it or lose it...
and the more "flexible" , limber and exercised the brain is , the better it works ( as well as the body ) .....
had one boss that could computer program anything you could imagine , but couldn't change a flat tire ...
had a friend that could rebuild and blue print race car engines , but couldn't change a light bulb or fuse ...
neither was stupid , but had different narrow talents ....
I grew up without a lot of cash , if you wanted something , you built it or repaired someone's throw away.... learned a lot along the way ..., and still learning today ....
dave1949
Super Star Member
Maine has (MAP) Maine Apprenticeship Program, a state supported collaboration between employers, students, unions & trade groups.
Maine Apprenticeship Program | Maine CareerCenter
There is quite list of skilled trades the program will cover.
http://maine.gov/labor/careerctr/docs/me_list.pdf
They say apprenticeship positions go begging in Maine. So, somehow the program is not delivering the desired results.
I think some improvement is needed in how schools function in the career development area, child labor laws need some exceptions perhaps, and employers need to, and be enabled to, take on more of a "grow your own" approach in some cases. By and large people will go where opportunity leads them. When that fails, either the opportunity, the promotion of the opportunity, or the leadership is lacking.
I say this as a person who began their own career as a HS Industrial arts teacher in the mid-70's when shop class was already a somewhat of a dumping ground and refuge for those who needed credits and couldn't earn them in math and science classes. Joint vocational schools were coming into their own at that time which de-emphasized less career-oriented Industrial Arts programs.
Money flowed to the vocational schools and away from shop classes in the regular schools. It took a while for vocational schools to overcome the stigma attached to them in the early days that functioned as a disincentive for talented students. The idea of "Why would you be in a vocational school? You can attend college", was and may still be pretty common.
As for the regular shop classes, now that vocational schools siphoned off the serious pre-craftsmen, you won't find many bright and talented kids who will sign-up for an elective class when they know they will be with the skaters, behavior challenged, and learning disabled. Why would they? They can attend college prep classes and avoid the undesirable elements in their prison, er - school. :laughing:
Beyond the social aspects, what or how much can a teacher do for a student reading at Grade 12+ level in a high school classroom dominated by those reading at Grade 7 level? You can bore them to death, that's what. I know there is an emphasis on individualized learning now, but that has practical limits.
I think we should provide a better path explicitly designed for skilled trade development. If a student is 16-years-old, has completed the 10th grade, can pass a test demonstrating basic abilities in math, science, and English, and expresses an interest in an apprenticeship program, then turn 'em loose to go do what they want full-time.
Of course, that needs some structure. Such as a summer internship between the 10th and 11th grade to test the waters and be accepted or rejected by an eventual employer who is willing and able to provide a two year paying work-study/apprenticeship program. If the student doesn't succeed at that, put them back in regular school--now there is motivation. :laughing:
For those who do succeed, traditional school is behind them and their focus is on developing skills while earning a growing paycheck. They would still have classroom studies as needed for their trade, but everybody in the room would be there for the same reasons and actually know why. Students could still attain a HS diploma, and a reasonably well-rounded education, by using on-line courses. Their regular high school could pay for that over an available window of say four years or so.
Maine Apprenticeship Program | Maine CareerCenter
There is quite list of skilled trades the program will cover.
http://maine.gov/labor/careerctr/docs/me_list.pdf
They say apprenticeship positions go begging in Maine. So, somehow the program is not delivering the desired results.
I think some improvement is needed in how schools function in the career development area, child labor laws need some exceptions perhaps, and employers need to, and be enabled to, take on more of a "grow your own" approach in some cases. By and large people will go where opportunity leads them. When that fails, either the opportunity, the promotion of the opportunity, or the leadership is lacking.
I say this as a person who began their own career as a HS Industrial arts teacher in the mid-70's when shop class was already a somewhat of a dumping ground and refuge for those who needed credits and couldn't earn them in math and science classes. Joint vocational schools were coming into their own at that time which de-emphasized less career-oriented Industrial Arts programs.
Money flowed to the vocational schools and away from shop classes in the regular schools. It took a while for vocational schools to overcome the stigma attached to them in the early days that functioned as a disincentive for talented students. The idea of "Why would you be in a vocational school? You can attend college", was and may still be pretty common.
As for the regular shop classes, now that vocational schools siphoned off the serious pre-craftsmen, you won't find many bright and talented kids who will sign-up for an elective class when they know they will be with the skaters, behavior challenged, and learning disabled. Why would they? They can attend college prep classes and avoid the undesirable elements in their prison, er - school. :laughing:
Beyond the social aspects, what or how much can a teacher do for a student reading at Grade 12+ level in a high school classroom dominated by those reading at Grade 7 level? You can bore them to death, that's what. I know there is an emphasis on individualized learning now, but that has practical limits.
I think we should provide a better path explicitly designed for skilled trade development. If a student is 16-years-old, has completed the 10th grade, can pass a test demonstrating basic abilities in math, science, and English, and expresses an interest in an apprenticeship program, then turn 'em loose to go do what they want full-time.
Of course, that needs some structure. Such as a summer internship between the 10th and 11th grade to test the waters and be accepted or rejected by an eventual employer who is willing and able to provide a two year paying work-study/apprenticeship program. If the student doesn't succeed at that, put them back in regular school--now there is motivation. :laughing:
For those who do succeed, traditional school is behind them and their focus is on developing skills while earning a growing paycheck. They would still have classroom studies as needed for their trade, but everybody in the room would be there for the same reasons and actually know why. Students could still attain a HS diploma, and a reasonably well-rounded education, by using on-line courses. Their regular high school could pay for that over an available window of say four years or so.
k0ua
Epic Contributor
One of the biggest education days of my life was when my brother in law and father in law and I attempted to lay concrete blocks for the BIL's new shop. We work most of the day on it with "limited" results. The next door neighbor was a pro mason, and he finally got tired of watching us and came over and said if you guys will keep the mud mixed and the blocks moving to him he would lay the block.. In about 2 hours after he tore our out work, he laid 10 times the blocks, and they were joined correctly. He worked our butts off just mixing mud and keeping him going. He taught me how to "butter" blocks, and how to cut them and how our mortar was way to dry!. Anyway I learned a lot and got to watch a man that knew what he was doing work. It was a great learning experience.
