COYOTES

[ponytug]

Just an idea - We have a problem with deer that get inside the fence we put up to protect new orchard trees. (About 20 acres fenced). Would it work to invite a club of herding-dog enthusiasts to run the deer out the front gate?

Just thinking, here. I have no idea if this is practical. Comments?

Hmm, herding dogs for competition, perhaps not as you want your dog to respond appropriately to the type of animal. A neighbor with a couple of herding dogs, maybe. Deer a very skittish, and it would take a very quiet set of dogs to move it slowly toward a gate.

If it were me, I'd set up some construction fence to make a funnel at the gate, and use an enough folks starting on the far side to quietly work the deer toward the funnel.

This isn't a common problem for you, right?

All the best,

Peter

 

[jyoutz]

Coyotes, as well as predators in general are and always have been controversial. I used to belong to the kill them all crowd, but have started to realize that


The wolves in this end of the nation were wiped out 100 years ago and for a while we were the only predator. Nature abhors a void however, and about 80 years ago coyotes started moving in. They are bigger than what you have though. As they moved in they apparently mated with wolves which made them bigger.

I was just reading about that before seeing this post; hunters here hate them because of the perceived effect on the deer population. Meanwhile some want to save them, and one person who is a founding member of the “Maine Wolf Coalition” claims that coyotes are protected under the endangered species as, because they are up to 20% wolf.

That’s nonsense about ESA protection. A species must be specifically listed as threatened or endangered on the USFWS list with a recovery plan to have ESA protection. Hybrid species don’t qualify.

 

[California]

Hmm, herding dogs for competition, perhaps not as you want your dog to respond appropriately to the type of animal. A neighbor with a couple of herding dogs, maybe. Deer a very skittish, and it would take a very quiet set of dogs to move it slowly toward a gate.

If it were me, I'd set up some construction fence to make a funnel at the gate, and use an enough folks starting on the far side to quietly work the deer toward the funnel.

This isn't a common problem for you, right?

Ha. So common that I sent four crittercam vids of the deer walking by the deck last night, to my kids who visit often. Mama Doe in the lead, then two spikes that follow a minute behind her wherever she goes. Camera saw her go by with the spikes then repeat, same direction, a half hour later.

Yes common. These spikes might even have been the fawns that a doe brought to the house to 'hide' under a bench under the kitchen window for a half day, a few years ago. Skittish but that illustrated she trusted us.

I finally got them to stop walking on the deck at night, waking us up, by using a HF 'gate alarm' that chimes its remote when something goes by. Same thing you hear when you walk in the door of a one-owner business.

I don't have the resources to put a line of beaters out to flush them, like the big game hunters do. 3 - 4 people isn't near enough with so many places to hide. We had limited success when the neighbor had a guest with a fast 4-wheeler but they came back, apparently under the fence somewhere, in a few days. They very much feel this is their home. I was thinking dogs chasing might make them less likely to return. But if this would mis-educate the dogs then that isn't a solution.

 

[ponytug]

Yes, that counts as "common" in my book. I'd ask around; some of our neighbors use dogs to move cattle, but most don't. Ours aren't well enough trained at the moment to do the work (one too old, one too young). If it wasn't an orchard, I would have done it with one of our horses. We used to have one that was practically a search and rescue horse. We saw more wildlife because he found it, and pointed it out. We discovered that we have a mountain lion trail across the property, only because one evening while I was picking him up, he looked up to watch "Ethyl" cruise on by. He wasn't perturbed, and neither was she.

I tried "liquid fence" against deer once, but I was so revolted by the smell that it turned out to be useless. Cougar urine? Flashing lights in the orchard?

All the best, Peter

 

[westcliffe01]

For people with Livestock coyotes can be a serious problem. Sheep in particular a single attack on a herd can cause the loss of several animals and they can attack every day. Here in MI it seems that in high summer when the pups have grown enough, the parents bring them out to benign species like sheep to train the pups how to attack. Very seldom will a significant portion of the attacked sheep be consumed. If the pack of coyotes were hungry they would not have left the sheep above partially eaten and still alive...

It is our role as alpha predator and manager of the land to make it clear to the coyotes that it is not safe on the property. Trapping is a more effective method than hunting but that gets complicated when your own dogs are on the property and where the livestock themselves are likely to get into the traps. Thus shoot on sight and being prepared at all times. Shooting from a helicopter at a steep angle to the ground, the earth is your backstop thus is much safer that someone sitting or lying on the ground and thus by necessity needing to shoot in a virtually horizontal trajectory. But there are not many places that would allow for helicopter hunting, for sure I have never heard about it in Michigan. The sheep farm I was involved in, at the time I started (in my "free" time) they lost pretty much all their lambs of that season and part of the adult breed herd and the DNR folk did not care 1 whit. By the time I had shot the first 3 alpha coyotes they would no longer venture any closer than 300-400 yards to the barn whereas they were literally dragging lambs out the barn at night when I first showed up. The owner was shooting them with a shotgun from inside the barn.

Because of their changed tactics I had to begin engaging them at night and thus went with a gen 3 NV scope ($3800) and due to local laws I at that time could not use a caliber larger than a rimfire. At night the coyotes felt that they had the cover of darkness and one could get them to come in or at least show themselves if you used coyote vocalizations instead of rabbit in distress which 100% did not work with our midwestern coyotes. The only thing that came in to a distress call was a huge owl. Today thermal scopes are available for the same price that I paid for the gen 3 scope and is more effective because it will unmistakably show you any living thing in the woods, whether it is a black cart horse , a mouse, the farmers dog or a coyote. Or trespassers for that matter. These are all potential problems you have to contend with where one could run into problems with regular night vision if the subject is well camoflaged or sitting in the shade in the woods. Cant be seen if there is no contrast with regular night vision. Thermal is way more positive. But of course a premium product with a price to match.

Given my success at driving them off into the distance during the day, I also had to up the game with my equipment and went from the original 222Rem to a 223 with 75gr high BC bullets to a custom 243 Ackley with 95gr high BC bullets to engage at 350+ yards and the 243 was definitely the right medicine for the range and with the appropriate terminal ballistics. Not 1 coyote has got up after being hit with the 243 and wind deflection is considerably reduced compared to my 223.

 

[westcliffe01]

This particular image shows the barn where the sheep sleep at night in the center. The owners cabin is the one with the green roof and it should be clear that from the farmhouse one cannot see the coyotes as they would approach at the bottom of the draw, coming in over the ice in winter where they are completely hidden from view. Then they can approach the barn behind the cover of the hill to the right, where once again they are hidden from view until they crest the top of the hill at which point they are only 20-30 yards from the barn.

 

[California]

Lights to discourage deer? The camera lights up (infrared) for the vids in that list, you can sometimes see the deer startle for a moment then go on because they've learned its harmless. Apparently they can see the infrared that isn't noticed by humans.

I don't think anything short of chased by dogs would make enough impression to discourage the deer long term. Another alternative is invite a neighbor who buys deer tags some years, to hunt the bucks when that's in season. But my kids and grandkids who see these frequent vids would never forgive me, they think the wildlife here is like interesting pets. Today I also sent them vids from another cam showing the skunk making 3 zooming passes down the deck, the family of four raccoons also romping the length of the deck, and the bobcat and the feral cat (last vid) coming down those stairs shown in my attachment. All in one night. It's a zoo at night!

I tried something I read, Irish Spring Soap as a deterrent. The mice or raccoons ate it immediately. We also tried fencing each tree when we planted 125 new trees in 2015. That helped the trees get a start but then the deer learned they could climb, crush, the flimsy deer netting around the trees. We removed all that after a couple of years when they were all bashed down.


Added: Wow. I'm glad we don't have aggressive coyotes like those Michigan photos. Worst case here is a housecat lost once in a while.

 

[westcliffe01]

Here is a report on coyote attacks in California specifically. Seems to be a lot more activity than you are aware of.
Coyote Attacks: An Increasing Suburban Problem

 

[oosik]

Could you please explain this government program. Around here guys have dogs with radio collars, drive the roads, then run in quick to get their kill. Maybe there is a better way.

Honestly - I had never heard of this program and I do not remember what it was called. Next time I see my neighbor - I'll write it down and let everybody know.

 

[oosik]

There is a Basque fellow about fifty miles south of me. He has thousands of sheep and several Great Pyrenees dogs. I guess this is his way of protecting his sheep.

Several years ago - down his way - searching for a Geocache in a blinding snow storm. Crawled under a barbed wire fence - following my hand held GPS. Walked smack dab into one of his Great Pyrenees dogs. Damn near crapped myself. Thank God - the dog was friendly and not aggressive.