Countdown to 50 hours
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RalphVa
Super Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2003
- Messages
- 7,884
- Location
- Charlottesville, VA, USA
- Tractor
- JD 2025R, previously Gravely 5650 & JD 4010 & JD 1025R
Rob-D,
You can definitely blend motor oils to get the right viscosity. I worked 31 years in the lubricating oil industry as a chemical engineer. Our lube "planners" blended viscosities all the time, if something was a little off spec, often blending a tad of 30w material into 10w product to bring it up to spec or a tad of 5w into 10w to bring it down, if boiling point could still be on spec.
Blending between 5w30 and 15w50 should be almost linear. A 50/50 blend would be pretty close to 10w40. A synthetic is higher boiling than a dino oil; so, a little bit of lighter boiling material from the 5w would be probably no lower boiling than a dino 10w. Therefore, there should be no increase in oil consumption due to lower boiling material.
I'd be more concerned with folks using 15w40 oils where 5w30 or 0w30 or 0w40 ones would give much quicker lubrication of the engine internals, particularly the OHV train, on startup.
Ralph
You can definitely blend motor oils to get the right viscosity. I worked 31 years in the lubricating oil industry as a chemical engineer. Our lube "planners" blended viscosities all the time, if something was a little off spec, often blending a tad of 30w material into 10w product to bring it up to spec or a tad of 5w into 10w to bring it down, if boiling point could still be on spec.
Blending between 5w30 and 15w50 should be almost linear. A 50/50 blend would be pretty close to 10w40. A synthetic is higher boiling than a dino oil; so, a little bit of lighter boiling material from the 5w would be probably no lower boiling than a dino 10w. Therefore, there should be no increase in oil consumption due to lower boiling material.
I'd be more concerned with folks using 15w40 oils where 5w30 or 0w30 or 0w40 ones would give much quicker lubrication of the engine internals, particularly the OHV train, on startup.
Ralph
jimgerken
Veteran Member
You guys changing engine oil at 50 hours: My dealer recommended putting John Deere Breakin oil in it AGAIN at 50 hours. He says they have had better luck with their diesels seating everything properly by putting breakin oil in at the first oil change.
Also, the rule of thumb for switching to synthetics is to have the engine thoroughly broken-in in before switching. Regardless of following the advice of the paragraph above, putting synthetic in a 50 hour engine is a mistake. I would wait until at least the next scheduled change, if not the third change. Several hundred hours would be more appropriate, in my opinion, and that depends on the service duty. If you are actually working it a bit, it could be sooner (maybe 200). If you are cruising around running a mower or carrying stuff in the bucket for 200 hours, you are not ready for synthetic. Once the syn oil goes in, friction and wear drop so much, the rings are then done wearing in. Syn too soon means rings never seat and blow-by will always be higher. Amsoil spells out very clearly not to put synthetic in engines before they are broken-in. I assume Mobil would give you similar advice.
Also, the rule of thumb for switching to synthetics is to have the engine thoroughly broken-in in before switching. Regardless of following the advice of the paragraph above, putting synthetic in a 50 hour engine is a mistake. I would wait until at least the next scheduled change, if not the third change. Several hundred hours would be more appropriate, in my opinion, and that depends on the service duty. If you are actually working it a bit, it could be sooner (maybe 200). If you are cruising around running a mower or carrying stuff in the bucket for 200 hours, you are not ready for synthetic. Once the syn oil goes in, friction and wear drop so much, the rings are then done wearing in. Syn too soon means rings never seat and blow-by will always be higher. Amsoil spells out very clearly not to put synthetic in engines before they are broken-in. I assume Mobil would give you similar advice.
I think you have to understand the dynamics of new engines, I don't know how well your dealer does but the falicy of not using synthetics on new engines is something the auto industry has gotten over.
The list of new cars coming off the assembly line with synthetics has established that.
Amsoil does recommend using conventional oils for the first 500 miles, Mobil absolutely does not and I quote:
"Is it true that new engines need a break-in period using conventional motor oil?
That is a myth. In the past, engine break-in was necessary to remove any metal flashing (called swarf) or abrasive material left inside the engine after machining, as well as to allow the valves and rings to 壮eat properly. Today痴 engines are built with much tighter tolerances, much improved machining and under much cleaner conditions compared to the engines of 10 or 20 years ago. Current engine-manufacturing technology does not require a break-in period using petroleum-based motor oils.
In fact, Mobil 1 has shown excellent results in industry-standard ASTM tests, most of which use completely rebuilt engines for each new test run. Mobil 1ç—´ outstanding results in these tests demonstrate that proper break-in using Mobil 1 is not a concern. Mobil 1 can be used in an engine from the day you drive off the showroom floor.
Trust the engineers that specify Mobil 1 as original equipment (ç´*actory fill? in some of the worldç—´ finest automobiles!"
Amsoil specifies 500 miles and even if a car never exceeds 30 mph for the first 500 miles it would still only equal 16.6 hours of driving. JD makes the change at 50 hours, three times that value!
The important factor is to remove the loose metals and abrasives that are the result of machining and fabrication. After 50 hours, even at 30 mph a car will only have 1500 miles on it. My car company sets the change interval at 7500 and 3750 in harsh environments.
Harley Davidson, a staunch supporter of conventional oils has now switched to synthetics off the assembly line also.
Your dealer is living in the past, sorry. Talk to Merc., Porsche, Aston Martin, Corvette, etc. they are singing an entirely different tune. Remember something, synthetics and no more 'slippery' then conventional oils. It is their break down characteristics that set them apart.
Rob
The list of new cars coming off the assembly line with synthetics has established that.
Amsoil does recommend using conventional oils for the first 500 miles, Mobil absolutely does not and I quote:
"Is it true that new engines need a break-in period using conventional motor oil?
That is a myth. In the past, engine break-in was necessary to remove any metal flashing (called swarf) or abrasive material left inside the engine after machining, as well as to allow the valves and rings to 壮eat properly. Today痴 engines are built with much tighter tolerances, much improved machining and under much cleaner conditions compared to the engines of 10 or 20 years ago. Current engine-manufacturing technology does not require a break-in period using petroleum-based motor oils.
In fact, Mobil 1 has shown excellent results in industry-standard ASTM tests, most of which use completely rebuilt engines for each new test run. Mobil 1ç—´ outstanding results in these tests demonstrate that proper break-in using Mobil 1 is not a concern. Mobil 1 can be used in an engine from the day you drive off the showroom floor.
Trust the engineers that specify Mobil 1 as original equipment (ç´*actory fill? in some of the worldç—´ finest automobiles!"
Amsoil specifies 500 miles and even if a car never exceeds 30 mph for the first 500 miles it would still only equal 16.6 hours of driving. JD makes the change at 50 hours, three times that value!
The important factor is to remove the loose metals and abrasives that are the result of machining and fabrication. After 50 hours, even at 30 mph a car will only have 1500 miles on it. My car company sets the change interval at 7500 and 3750 in harsh environments.
Harley Davidson, a staunch supporter of conventional oils has now switched to synthetics off the assembly line also.
Your dealer is living in the past, sorry. Talk to Merc., Porsche, Aston Martin, Corvette, etc. they are singing an entirely different tune. Remember something, synthetics and no more 'slippery' then conventional oils. It is their break down characteristics that set them apart.
Rob
jimgerken
Veteran Member
Rob, the Corvette and maybe others on your list, come off the line with synthetic simply because they are unable to cool them well enough to run mineral based oils, period. I verified the "using breakin oil at 50 hours" with the dealer this summer again, with the purchase of the new tractor. He first informed me of this practice in 2001. His advice is based on his experience with John Deere tractor engines, not Corvettes or Porsches. Of course, as you said, you still do want to change the oil on time, and the filter, to get the initial slosh of machining contaminants and filings out of the boxes. Do what you want, but I would not run full-synthetic before you have had a chance to actually work the engine good and hard through at least a few dozen heat cycles. What is the hurry to get the synthetic oil installed anyway? As you implied, the worth of syn oil is its lifespan. If you are using mineral based oil and changing it on the recommended timetable, you are getting the same protection. Once finally changing to syn oil, your drain intervals can lengthen assuming you are keeping up with air and oil filters. Using oil analysis can virtually make oil change a thing of the past.
Don't get me wrong, I am a strong advocate of Syntheic oil. In fact I would have to think hard to give you a very short list of engines, gearboxes and transmissions I own that are not filled with synthetic lubricants. But breakin is where I am still "living in the past" because I am basing my actions on proven practices. And in this way my actions are slightly more conservative. Delaying the installation of synthetic untill thoroughly broken in costs nothing. In fact, it offers me the chance to use John Deere original equipment lubricants further into the warrantee period. Of course , if the oil used meets the specifcation, warrantee is not an issue. But it MAY be simpler if I can show I actually used their oil and had a problem. I can tell you from experience that other oil companies "gauranteed engine protection" is subject to verification by their own technical staff. Guess what they will find?
Stuff I own that is running fully synthetic oil:
97 GMC pickup, all 3 gear boxes , trans, and engine.
2001 Ford Focus engine only so far (it hasnt NEEDED a trans oil change yet)
three different ATV engines
Stihl chainsaw , weedwhips, garden tiller, other small junk...
2004 GM 4.3 powered I/O bowrider, engine and outdrive box
1991 BMW R100 installed on a small aircraft, engine and gearbox
Stuff I own that has no syn oil yet:
2007 John Deere 2520 with 25 hours (Duh! it's not broke in yet).
Don't get me wrong, I am a strong advocate of Syntheic oil. In fact I would have to think hard to give you a very short list of engines, gearboxes and transmissions I own that are not filled with synthetic lubricants. But breakin is where I am still "living in the past" because I am basing my actions on proven practices. And in this way my actions are slightly more conservative. Delaying the installation of synthetic untill thoroughly broken in costs nothing. In fact, it offers me the chance to use John Deere original equipment lubricants further into the warrantee period. Of course , if the oil used meets the specifcation, warrantee is not an issue. But it MAY be simpler if I can show I actually used their oil and had a problem. I can tell you from experience that other oil companies "gauranteed engine protection" is subject to verification by their own technical staff. Guess what they will find?
Stuff I own that is running fully synthetic oil:
97 GMC pickup, all 3 gear boxes , trans, and engine.
2001 Ford Focus engine only so far (it hasnt NEEDED a trans oil change yet)
three different ATV engines
Stihl chainsaw , weedwhips, garden tiller, other small junk...
2004 GM 4.3 powered I/O bowrider, engine and outdrive box
1991 BMW R100 installed on a small aircraft, engine and gearbox
Stuff I own that has no syn oil yet:
2007 John Deere 2520 with 25 hours (Duh! it's not broke in yet).
RalphVa
Super Member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2003
- Messages
- 7,884
- Location
- Charlottesville, VA, USA
- Tractor
- JD 2025R, previously Gravely 5650 & JD 4010 & JD 1025R
I changed to synthetic at 13 hours on my 4010. That's about equivalent to about 650 miles on a car at 50 mph.
The engine does not use oil. It now has about 260 hours on it.
I think using synthetic, with no double chain molecules to more easily break down to form sludge, early on will keep the engine very clean. On my other 3 vehicles (2 gas; 1 diesel), it seems to have taken to about their 3rd oil change to fully increase their fuel economy to the 4% that ExxonMobil claim for Mobil 1. The VW is pretty consistently getting 33 mpg; the Tacoma is getting 28-30; the Benz is right up there banging on 30. Before, the VW would be at about 31, Tacoma at 27 and Benz at 29. Of course, I changed out the air sensor on the Tacoma to eliminate its hard starting when hot. That probably increased its mileage more than anything, but generally from 25-26ish to solid 27, but is now 28-30.
It took 2 oil changes on my Gravely before it QUIT using oil. Totally quit using oil on Mobil 1. (The Benz still is though. It's built into them.)
I really wonder if modern engines really still need a breakin period. Think the breakin period before was to wear away "high" spots and burrs. With higher precision apparently being used to make parts now, I really doubt there's much breakin needed.
The changes of fluids at 50 hours is mainly to drain away metals or other particles that got left behind in assembly, probably not pieces that get worn away.
Ralph
The engine does not use oil. It now has about 260 hours on it.
I think using synthetic, with no double chain molecules to more easily break down to form sludge, early on will keep the engine very clean. On my other 3 vehicles (2 gas; 1 diesel), it seems to have taken to about their 3rd oil change to fully increase their fuel economy to the 4% that ExxonMobil claim for Mobil 1. The VW is pretty consistently getting 33 mpg; the Tacoma is getting 28-30; the Benz is right up there banging on 30. Before, the VW would be at about 31, Tacoma at 27 and Benz at 29. Of course, I changed out the air sensor on the Tacoma to eliminate its hard starting when hot. That probably increased its mileage more than anything, but generally from 25-26ish to solid 27, but is now 28-30.
It took 2 oil changes on my Gravely before it QUIT using oil. Totally quit using oil on Mobil 1. (The Benz still is though. It's built into them.)
I really wonder if modern engines really still need a breakin period. Think the breakin period before was to wear away "high" spots and burrs. With higher precision apparently being used to make parts now, I really doubt there's much breakin needed.
The changes of fluids at 50 hours is mainly to drain away metals or other particles that got left behind in assembly, probably not pieces that get worn away.
Ralph
