Countdown to 50 hours

[madpogue]

Machine: '07 790, R1 tires, no FEL, 35 hrs

I don't think we'll be putting more than 15 hrs on it this weekend, but we're inching toward the "first 50 hours" service. I have some questions about parts/supplies.

* Farm & Fleet has John Deere specific hyd/trans lube, that says it meets JD20-C specs. But the owner's manual calls for JD20-D. Will it still do, or should I be on the safe side and look for something else? This stuff is about $11 a two-gallon jug. How does the honest-to-goodness JD stuff compare?
* For engine oil, I got a gallon of Shell Rotella-T Synthetic 5w40 . I presume that's a good choice, righ?
* Any place I can get aftermarket engine and tranny oil filters, or should I stick with the green paint job?

TIA

 

[Jack Squat]

Yep actually going to do mine this weekend. I bought all JD from the local dealer and spent about 120. In a few posts that I have read here, some mentioned following the specific reccomendations during warranty period just in case .... I thought that seemed prudent, so went down that road. I will watch this post to see other options though, for the future.

Kind of embarrassed to admit and I am pretty sure my wifes eyes rolled when I told her - I have been thinking about this service so much - I dreamed about doing it

Is that sick?

 

[jbrumberg]

Kind of embarrassed to admit and I am pretty sure my wifes eyes rolled when I told her - I have been thinking about this service so much - I dreamed about doing it

Is that sick? [/QUOTE]

Jack:

Just a symptom of tractoritis ! Hopefully your wife will adjust to the progressive nature of the syndrome . Jay

 

[Runner]

I have a similar question. According to the manual, the tractor is shipped with the regular viscosity type hydro fluid. The manual also says not to mix the regular and the low-viscosity fluid. I would like to continue using the regular viscosity fluid, since that's what is recommended for the temperature range around here (Missouri) and because that's what came in the machine.

However, none of the dealers around here stock the regular viscosity fluid, they only have the low-viscosity. I asked about it and they said the stuff they had was fine, but I'm reluctant to use it. Seems to me that thicker is better on something like that, unless I actually see some kind of cold weather issues, and it doesn't really get that cold around here.

I would be interested in hearing others opinions on this and whether they have trouble finding the regular viscosity fluid at their dealers.

 

[Rob-D]

I used all synthetic when I did my 50 hour change. If you look back I wrote a lot about it here.
rob

 

[madpogue]

Runner, I did some poking around and found out that the low-vis J20D oil is good down to a lower temerature (I wanna say -30F) than the regular J20D (-5F, IIRC). But they're both still good up to the same max temperature (something like +110F?). So I think the low-vis only applies to lower temperatures; it doesn't sound like the low-vis is gonna be thinner at a given temperature, just able to handle lower temps. But I don't know anything about mixing them. For my purposes, I get to return the J20C to F&F.

What does seem to be the case is that ALL the conventional (dead dinos) aftermarket tranny oil is J20C. The only J20D I found aftermarket was synthetic, mostly (expectedly) AMSOil. And , $115 for five gallons is spendy. Besides, it's not readily available 'round here.

I'm gonna go ahead with the Rotella-T in the engine; 50 hours should be enough of a break-in. I'll have to hit the dealer for the filters, so I'll get the low-vis when I'm there.

Thanks for the info and insight everyone. Well, I'm not exactly dreaming about this service, I am looking forward to it. D'OH, I better remember an oil filter wrench. (I never have to use one on my Saturn; just manage to snatch it loose by hand.) No other special tools, right; just sockets and funnels?

 

[RalphVa]

When I did the 50 hour service, I did it in pieces a few days to a week or so apart: 1) engine oil change (5w30 Mobil 1); 2) 4wd front gear unit (85-140 oil from JD dealer); 3) hydraulic oil (low vis stuff from JD dealer here in Virginia, which gets as hot and longer than probably Mizzou). Doing it in pieces gives you a chance to recycle the oil to get the used oil container(s) empty for the next step.

Think someone reported here that the Shell Rotella "synthetic" is really hydrotreated oil and not oil made synthetically from PAO, like Mobil 1. I found this out after changing to Rotella 5w40 in my diesel Benz last year. Couldn't find any of the 5w40 Mobil 1 used 2 years ago; so, I have some 5w30 and 15w50 Mobil 1 to mix to get the prescribed (for the Benz) 10w40 for this next upcoming yearly oil change (at usually about 5k +/- miles). I change at 13 and then 100 (twice) on the tractor; so, it really wouldn't make much difference in my case. Using the xx30w would give you a tad more fuel economy vs. the 5w30 that the manual says is okay (for my 4010 anyway). If you can get it, 0w30 would be even better. Its viscosity at startup would still be higher than at operating temperature than probably even the xx40w.

Don't know where the hydro filter is on the 790. If it's behind the 3ph bar, you have to remove one rear wheel. This was very easy on the 4010: floor jack underneath one side of the drawbar, take off wheel, roll to side, remove 3ph bar & filter cap, cap back, bar back, wheel back on and torque.

Ralph

 

[Rob-D]

Ralph,
I'm not sure that mixing different viscosity oils makes a totally different viscosity. If I were you I would inquire with the producer to see if it is a correct application.

My local dealer doesn't stock some of the Mobil 1 oils I use but all I have to do is ask and he has it for me the next day. Merc. uses Mobil 1, 0W-40 in its new cars and my NAPA stocks it.

Also I don't believe Mobil 1 is specifically designed for diesel engines. Amsoil has a specific diesel oil which I use in my Deere. I think Mobil 1 mentions diesel engines on the can though.

My tractor is fully synthetic now. My thinking is that it cost a bundle and I'm going to do everything I can to keep it from failing. Really good hydro fluid is extremely important in gear boxes and hydro systems in fact more so then the engine oils. The last thing you want is a bearing failure in a box. I don't remember what the Amsoil cost me to fill my system but I consider it cheap insurance. I've seen tranny failures and fixed more then a few. I've also seen the long term wear of different oils on engines and synthetics are hands above conventional oils.

I've said this before here but I'll say it again, Merc., Porsche, Corvette, Aston Martin, etc. all come from the factory with synthetic oils specifically Mobil 1. It's just good stuff!

Rob

 

[madpogue]

Yup, I hear ya re. the synthetic. I just didn't have time to procure any Amsoil hyd/gear oil, so I hit the closest JD dealer for a bucket of low-vis. I'm thinking, since we don't even have an FEL yet, it's not quite as critical. I reckon if we start doing FEL work, even if it's before the next change interval, I'll switch to Amsoil.

And I've heard the same thing about mixing viscosities. Yes, you can do it, but it doesn't create an "average" viscosity mix.

So, I've got the oil filter wrench (and a general-purpose strap wrench, just in case), and a set of sockets, and a bigeffin' drain pan. The MFwd / PS machines have the tranny filter mounted pretty accessibly between the rear wheels; I don't forsee needing to remove the wheel. Last call before I leave town; any other tools I should need?

 

[Rob-D]

You may just need that strap wrench, as I recall the hydro filter was on pretty tight. Also make sure you have enough hydo fluid, mine took about 3-1/5 gal and not the book capacity.

 

[Rob-D]

ps- get a couple of funnels.

 

[RalphVa]

Rob-D,

You can definitely blend motor oils to get the right viscosity. I worked 31 years in the lubricating oil industry as a chemical engineer. Our lube "planners" blended viscosities all the time, if something was a little off spec, often blending a tad of 30w material into 10w product to bring it up to spec or a tad of 5w into 10w to bring it down, if boiling point could still be on spec.

Blending between 5w30 and 15w50 should be almost linear. A 50/50 blend would be pretty close to 10w40. A synthetic is higher boiling than a dino oil; so, a little bit of lighter boiling material from the 5w would be probably no lower boiling than a dino 10w. Therefore, there should be no increase in oil consumption due to lower boiling material.

I'd be more concerned with folks using 15w40 oils where 5w30 or 0w30 or 0w40 ones would give much quicker lubrication of the engine internals, particularly the OHV train, on startup.

Ralph

 

[Rob-D]

Thanks Ralph,
I wasn't aware that oil viscosity could be changed by blending.

 

[jimgerken]

You guys changing engine oil at 50 hours: My dealer recommended putting John Deere Breakin oil in it AGAIN at 50 hours. He says they have had better luck with their diesels seating everything properly by putting breakin oil in at the first oil change.
Also, the rule of thumb for switching to synthetics is to have the engine thoroughly broken-in in before switching. Regardless of following the advice of the paragraph above, putting synthetic in a 50 hour engine is a mistake. I would wait until at least the next scheduled change, if not the third change. Several hundred hours would be more appropriate, in my opinion, and that depends on the service duty. If you are actually working it a bit, it could be sooner (maybe 200). If you are cruising around running a mower or carrying stuff in the bucket for 200 hours, you are not ready for synthetic. Once the syn oil goes in, friction and wear drop so much, the rings are then done wearing in. Syn too soon means rings never seat and blow-by will always be higher. Amsoil spells out very clearly not to put synthetic in engines before they are broken-in. I assume Mobil would give you similar advice.

 

[Rob-D]

I think you have to understand the dynamics of new engines, I don't know how well your dealer does but the falicy of not using synthetics on new engines is something the auto industry has gotten over.

The list of new cars coming off the assembly line with synthetics has established that.

Amsoil does recommend using conventional oils for the first 500 miles, Mobil absolutely does not and I quote:

"Is it true that new engines need a break-in period using conventional motor oil?


That is a myth. In the past, engine break-in was necessary to remove any metal flashing (called swarf) or abrasive material left inside the engine after machining, as well as to allow the valves and rings to 壮eat properly. Today痴 engines are built with much tighter tolerances, much improved machining and under much cleaner conditions compared to the engines of 10 or 20 years ago. Current engine-manufacturing technology does not require a break-in period using petroleum-based motor oils.

In fact, Mobil 1 has shown excellent results in industry-standard ASTM tests, most of which use completely rebuilt engines for each new test run. Mobil 1ç—´ outstanding results in these tests demonstrate that proper break-in using Mobil 1 is not a concern. Mobil 1 can be used in an engine from the day you drive off the showroom floor.

Trust the engineers that specify Mobil 1 as original equipment (ç´*actory fill? in some of the worldç—´ finest automobiles!"

Amsoil specifies 500 miles and even if a car never exceeds 30 mph for the first 500 miles it would still only equal 16.6 hours of driving. JD makes the change at 50 hours, three times that value!

The important factor is to remove the loose metals and abrasives that are the result of machining and fabrication. After 50 hours, even at 30 mph a car will only have 1500 miles on it. My car company sets the change interval at 7500 and 3750 in harsh environments.

Harley Davidson, a staunch supporter of conventional oils has now switched to synthetics off the assembly line also.

Your dealer is living in the past, sorry. Talk to Merc., Porsche, Aston Martin, Corvette, etc. they are singing an entirely different tune. Remember something, synthetics and no more 'slippery' then conventional oils. It is their break down characteristics that set them apart.

Rob

 

[jimgerken]

Rob, the Corvette and maybe others on your list, come off the line with synthetic simply because they are unable to cool them well enough to run mineral based oils, period. I verified the "using breakin oil at 50 hours" with the dealer this summer again, with the purchase of the new tractor. He first informed me of this practice in 2001. His advice is based on his experience with John Deere tractor engines, not Corvettes or Porsches. Of course, as you said, you still do want to change the oil on time, and the filter, to get the initial slosh of machining contaminants and filings out of the boxes. Do what you want, but I would not run full-synthetic before you have had a chance to actually work the engine good and hard through at least a few dozen heat cycles. What is the hurry to get the synthetic oil installed anyway? As you implied, the worth of syn oil is its lifespan. If you are using mineral based oil and changing it on the recommended timetable, you are getting the same protection. Once finally changing to syn oil, your drain intervals can lengthen assuming you are keeping up with air and oil filters. Using oil analysis can virtually make oil change a thing of the past.
Don't get me wrong, I am a strong advocate of Syntheic oil. In fact I would have to think hard to give you a very short list of engines, gearboxes and transmissions I own that are not filled with synthetic lubricants. But breakin is where I am still "living in the past" because I am basing my actions on proven practices. And in this way my actions are slightly more conservative. Delaying the installation of synthetic untill thoroughly broken in costs nothing. In fact, it offers me the chance to use John Deere original equipment lubricants further into the warrantee period. Of course , if the oil used meets the specifcation, warrantee is not an issue. But it MAY be simpler if I can show I actually used their oil and had a problem. I can tell you from experience that other oil companies "gauranteed engine protection" is subject to verification by their own technical staff. Guess what they will find?
Stuff I own that is running fully synthetic oil:
97 GMC pickup, all 3 gear boxes , trans, and engine.
2001 Ford Focus engine only so far (it hasnt NEEDED a trans oil change yet)
three different ATV engines
Stihl chainsaw , weedwhips, garden tiller, other small junk...
2004 GM 4.3 powered I/O bowrider, engine and outdrive box
1991 BMW R100 installed on a small aircraft, engine and gearbox

Stuff I own that has no syn oil yet:
2007 John Deere 2520 with 25 hours (Duh! it's not broke in yet).

 

[RalphVa]

I changed to synthetic at 13 hours on my 4010. That's about equivalent to about 650 miles on a car at 50 mph.

The engine does not use oil. It now has about 260 hours on it.

I think using synthetic, with no double chain molecules to more easily break down to form sludge, early on will keep the engine very clean. On my other 3 vehicles (2 gas; 1 diesel), it seems to have taken to about their 3rd oil change to fully increase their fuel economy to the 4% that ExxonMobil claim for Mobil 1. The VW is pretty consistently getting 33 mpg; the Tacoma is getting 28-30; the Benz is right up there banging on 30. Before, the VW would be at about 31, Tacoma at 27 and Benz at 29. Of course, I changed out the air sensor on the Tacoma to eliminate its hard starting when hot. That probably increased its mileage more than anything, but generally from 25-26ish to solid 27, but is now 28-30.

It took 2 oil changes on my Gravely before it QUIT using oil. Totally quit using oil on Mobil 1. (The Benz still is though. It's built into them.)

I really wonder if modern engines really still need a breakin period. Think the breakin period before was to wear away "high" spots and burrs. With higher precision apparently being used to make parts now, I really doubt there's much breakin needed.

The changes of fluids at 50 hours is mainly to drain away metals or other particles that got left behind in assembly, probably not pieces that get worn away.

Ralph