construction bid - what does it mean?

   / construction bid - what does it mean? #1  

RussMan

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
104
Location
Jefferson City, MO (central)
Tractor
B3030 w/ FEL and 72" midmt
I got an estimate from a guy to build a small barn. Being relatively new to this, I am not sure exactly how to interpret it. For example, he details his estimate for lumber, concrete, site prep etc. My question is, if he actually uses for example less lumber than he estimates, does he pass that savings on to me, or will he charge me the same amt even if it actually cost him less? Is there a standard answer to this question, or is this something I should ask him or how is this typically treated? I know you construction guys can help me with this simple question.
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #2  
If he is a reputable contractor he should have a good idea of the work and materials involved. A plus is that he gave you an itemized "estimate" which is good for comparing against other contractor estimates, thats better than an "I'll do it for $4,000", at least you have an idea of the materials that "should" go into your building.

An estimate is "an estimate", based on the contractors knowledge,experiance and current material cost. Thats why you will want a "contract" drawn up, based on the estimate and the details you work out with the contractor.

The way I see it, with your question in mind is , I wouldn't want lessor materials used than in the estimate, also I wouldn't want a higher invoice due to "under-estimating" either. Thats why I would want a CONTRACT, based off the estimate and details you worked out. A reputable contrator will have no problem with a contract, like back in high school..."always have protection"
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #3  
Their are about 1,000 different ways to write a contract. I ran a $1B a year contracting shop as a Fed. So a few pointers., NUMBER 1., you never pay up front for anything except materials and then you make sure the contractor is paying for the materials see the paid invoice (put it in the contract that you get copies of the material's invoice). In your contract set up a payment schedule, most times it goes something like 1/3 at start of work to pay materials (small business normally need this), additional 1/3 at 75% complete and the final 1/3 when you are satisfied that all the punch list items are done to your satisfaction.

It sounds to me that your guy is above board with specific estimates. You need another estimate, you really should look at min of 3 contractors. If you want to control material cost, you could ask him to do a "Cost plus Fee contract" where you pay all the direct cost (you have to know quality of material in my view to do this) and you give him a flat fee at the end (or according to the contract schedule).

One other item if your concerned about time to finish the project, put in a kicker, for an early finish and a plenty for a late finish.

Hope this helps...
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #4  
Back when I did construction most of the time if the price came up higher than the estimate was when something extra was added, Sometimes when the project is in the middle you will decide that you need another door, window or loft adding to the estimate cost. If you don't know the contractor very will go for contract. He is going to charge you the estimate price when the job is done unless you have some extra things added. If you have not I would look at some other work that is like what he is going to do for you. big dan
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #5  
A lot of contractors don't like to give a specific breakdown on each component of the job because they always run into the "I can get it cheaper syndrome" (thru my brother-in-law etc etc). Besides what you're seeing and reading what is your gut telling you? Do you fell comfortable doing business with this contractor? Also check out some of his recent and not so recent work are his previous customers satisfied? And as a general observation expect the unexpected and how will you handle it? It is always easier to discuss things before it happens than after. Good Luck -Ed
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #6  
RussMan said:
I got an estimate from a guy to build a small barn. Being relatively new to this, I am not sure exactly how to interpret it. For example, he details his estimate for lumber, concrete, site prep etc. My question is, if he actually uses for example less lumber than he estimates, does he pass that savings on to me, or will he charge me the same amt even if it actually cost him less? Is there a standard answer to this question, or is this something I should ask him or how is this typically treated? I know you construction guys can help me with this simple question.

You should ask him up front. He probably broke the estimate out so that you could better understand the cost and scope of the project, not so that you could shop for cheaper materials or hold your breath that he will use 11 fewer 2x4's and save you $31.34.

Hopefully you have been presented with a CONTRACT. A contract is the only safe way to do business, from both perspectives. It is essentially a road map covering what and how something will be built, using what materials, what happens if unforseen events occur (you run into bedrock and have to blast, etc.), how a "change order" is handled (if you move the location of a door, want an extra window, taller walls, etc.), and it will spell out how the contractor is paid, with the EXACT AMOUNT the job will cost if everything goes as planned. That said, some contractors play loosey goosey and give a ball park estimate. If you have deep pockets, go that route :)
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #7  
I agree with most of the responses here, an esitmate is just that, an estimate. Once the contract is written, you now have a fixed price regardless if he uses more lumber or less.

You NEED at least two more estimates to see how well the contractor does his estimating. Let the contractors know your taking bids, (somtimes gets a sharper pencil) and never discuss one contractors number with others. In general, the closer the numbers, the better the estimate.

Don't pay any money before the work starts. A contractor without at least 30 days credit with local vendors either has credit problems or is new to the game. Either way, I'm not sure I would hire him. We only get paid when the material arrives on site, and sometimes the invoices are reviewed.

The break-out of different activities can be usefull for doing progress payments.
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #8  
Here is a copy of a contract for a small job, a larger job should have much more detail:


3/01/08



CONTRACT FOR:

________________

________________

________________








Project Description




Replace garage entry doors with Western W-470, primed steel doors with rot-resistant jambs, re use knobs. Replace mud room/garage door (door only; re-use frame) with Western W-470, primed steel door, re-use door
knob, add Schlage dead bolt. Replace weather strip on front entry door, cut in and install Schlage dead bolt. No painting.

West garage door 756.50
East garage door 676.50
Mudroom door 330.00
Front door 166.25



TOTAL: 1,929.25



__________, Builder, will perform work for _______________
according to the above specifications.


Payment Schedule:
965.00 Contract Signing
964.25 Contract Complete


Change orders to be determined on a lump sum basis.


NOTICE OF LIEN RIGHTS:

As required by the wisconsin construction lien law, builder hearby notifies buyer that persons or companies furnishing labor or materials for the construction, remodeling, or repair on buyer痴 land may have lien rights on buyer痴 land or buildings if not paid. Those entitled to lien rights, in addition to undersigned builder, are those who contract directly with the owner or those who give the owner notice within 60 days after they
first furnished labor or material for construction, and should give a copy of each notice to his/her mortgage lender, if any to see that all potential lien claimants are duly paid.


Acceptance


I have read this agreement and have received a copy. I understand and accept its terms. Authorized signature for any change orders:



_____________________________________________________________

Builder Date



_____________________________________________________________

Buyer Date







I regularly get money down to start the project; after all, once they materials have been ordered, they belong to my customer. I do not bid on jobs that are being competively bid out, and I have excellent credit and have been in business for many years. I also attended the School of Hard Knocks ;)
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #9  
There are two or three different types of construction contracts and its important to know which one you are using.

The first is a fixed price contract. "I'll build you X for the amount of Y" On that type of contract, unless you spec it from the beginning, you don't get break downs of materials and costs. You get a finished project at a fixed price. Of course when you're putting together the contract, you can put in stuff like you want to see the invoices, or partial lien releases from material suppliers, or you can even put in a clause that allows you to joint payee the checks to his suppliers. Most guys don't like that and it will depend on how hungry he is for work at to whether he'll agree to that.

YOu can also do a fixed price contract with certain price items or allowances in it. For example, its a 20k fixed price, but that assumes 5k for concrete, 12k for lumber, 2k for doors and the balance labor. If you change your mind and pick fancier doors, that portion of the contract will go up accordingly but the rest stays the same. Thats kind of the contact davitk gave an example of. If you changed the front door in his example, the other items shouldn't change.

You can also do a time and material contract with no fixed price. In this instance, you'll get an estimate and then you'll be entitled to see each invoice for materials plus actual hours for the labor. One problem with that is that for small contractors, the labor is most often kept pretty loosely. If its a prevailing wage job with certified payroll, that's different. But most small homeowner jobs are much looser then that, so don't expect time records to be as accurate as you might think. Another problem is that with time and material jobs, there is always a gray area with some of the materials. The list might show a case of nails, or a case of sealant, but in reality it didnt' take that. So how do you deal with that issue? Did the guy really use 30 sheets of plywood or did he keep some of the extra?

You can also do a time and material contract with an upset price, or not to exceed price. That can be the original estimate price or some factor of it. That's kind of useful to keep a lid on things. The down side is that the upset price often becomes the target. The guy knows you won't squawk if the price hits that target, so guess what the final price is likely to be.

I've even written some time and material contracts with an upset price, but put a cost savings clause in them. Something like: for every dollar below the upset price, the contractor gets to keep 30 cents or something. Gives some incentive.

Its really a matter of pick your poison.

A couple of the really big items; getting proof that he pays his suppliers and making sure that any change orders are in writing. I don't care how casual the relationship is, not getting changes in writing is a killer on any construction project. Also be sure to clarify who's paying the permit. Does the price include sales tax? Stuff like that. You also want to clarify IN ADVANCE that what you're going to build will be o.k. with the local code guys. A seemingly small item by one of the code enforcement guys can really increase the cost. Is that all your responsibility? All the contractors for not checking in advance? Or some of each.

Another issue on bigger projects and occaisionaly on small ones if what happens if you do a deductive change order? In other words, you get into it and decide to scale it back. Most contractors will want to keep their overhead and profit on the entire contract. For the deduct, you only deduct the cost of the materials and actual labor costs. You still pay the O & P, which can be up to 20% or more. Just be sure to cover that possibility when you write the contract.

In a very broad sense, if you really know the contractor and he really has a good record and you're really sure of your plans (i.e. you're not going to add a bunch of stuff as you go along) You can often get a somewhat better price doing things time and material. With a fixed price bid, many contractors will build in a little fudge room to make up for things if they've messed up on a line item in the price. You can eliminate that with a time and material contract.

Another idea, depending on who drew up your plans and material list, is to have your contractor do some value engineering on the project before he bids it. Have him take a good hard look at the project and give you some ideas on what might be some good cost savings. There area all sorts of things you can save money on and often, they're not written into plans and specs when you get them.

Have fun.
 
   / construction bid - what does it mean? #10  
Russ,

We all seem to do it differently. The only way to be sure is to ask him. Most likely, he will only charge you for materials used.

I've had clients that tell me they want to final price when asking for a bid. No suprises, no changes. They don't care what materials cost or anything else, just that one number. On those jobs, I pad everything to cover my butt. If I think I'll need 100 studs, I figure 130 to be sure on my bid. The same is true for most materials. I don't want to come out short, so I charge a premium. I tend to make more money on those jobs, but the headache factor seems to be higher.

I prefer to work for people where they pay for only the materials used and I make my money on labor only. If we buy too many studs, then we return them and the only pay for those used. If we need more, then they pay for those. I do my best to bid what I'll need, but it's impossible to get it exact. Usually I'm over by a bit. Sometimes the client will have them returned, but allot of the time, they like to keep the extra materials for something else in the future.

You cannot ask too many questions and you should document everything.

Eddie
 

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