Computer controlled engines

[40_acre_mule]

I was looking to upgrade from the L4400 to maybe an M5660, but....

All the bigger tractors seem to have computerized engines.
I can work on the 4400 mechanical engine with a little help from my son-in-law, but I don't know about the computers.

What have y'all experienced?
What are y'all's thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mule

 

[Wagtail]

It's not just the donk that's controlled/monitored by a computer... the big tractors are being designed to operate via 'fly by wire' technology too (just like aeroplanes).

"The times, they are a'changin'"

 

[Baby Grand]

The cats are worried about the self driving Google Gravely, next door.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I hear what you're sayin', Mule.

On the positive side, my daily driver, a 2005 sedan that I bought new, has logged 145,000 miles on it's computer controlled engine and I've never so much as noticed it. Could have been all mechanical, for all I could tell. Never had to fix it, either - for which I am deeply grateful. Wouldn't know where to start. Probably unplug the black box and toss it in the trash, then buy a replacement for the price of 2 new tires.

It's been dead nuts reliable, except for a little lame spot in the go pedal when the car's cold. Once the thermostat opens up, that little annoyance goes away. Of course, I can't adjust. Bad code, I guess. Suppose I could get it "reflashed", but I'm disinclined to mess around with it. Hopefully, Kubota gets it right, and no one will even notice the difference.

Take it for a test drive and see if you can tell that it's not all mechanical. I'll wager it's unnoticeable.

-Jim

 

[Fallon]

Any new machine as of a couple years ago (2014ish) over 25hp will have at least 1 computer to deal with tier 4 emissions stuff. The fancier the machine, the more electronics.

Under 25hp is generally mechanical not electronic because of cost & the fact they don't need a DPF for emissions.

 

[buickanddeere]

Electrical and electronics is not complicated .

 

[dickfoster]

I was looking to upgrade from the L4400 to maybe an M5660, but....

All the bigger tractors seem to have computerized engines.
I can work on the 4400 mechanical engine with a little help from my son-in-law, but I don't know about the computers.

What have y'all experienced?
What are y'all's thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Mule

I think computer engine management is great and the best thing since sliced bread.
Get a couple of books and read up on it and it's not so ominous.
More power, less fuel, longer life, less maintenance, what's wrong with that? Just compare just what a car with EFI does today compared to an old carbureted engine and I can't think of one reason besides ignorance why anyone would put a carb on an engine today or want to go back to the old way. EFI is just plain way more efficient.

 

[40_acre_mule]

I think computer engine management is great and the best thing since sliced bread.
Get a couple of books and read up on it and it's not so ominous.
More power, less fuel, longer life, less maintenance, what's wrong with that? Just compare just what a car with EFI does today compared to an old carbureted engine and I can't think of one reason besides ignorance why anyone would put a carb on an engine today or want to go back to the old way. EFI is just plain way more efficient.

I agree with all the above until the tractor hits 10-12 years old. All I'm saying is that when the time comes, years from now, I'll find it easier to work on a mechanical device. Replacing, reprogramming, etc. computers comes with a whole 'nother set of problems.

 

[Garandman]

Electrical and electronics is not complicated .

Electrons hardly weigh anything and you can't see them.

Like cats, they're not to be trusted.....:laughing:

 

[adventure bob]

Remember, the computer and its diagnostics are designed so the "average" tech can do the work with minimal training and/or knowledge of computers. If the guy at my Chrysler dealer can do it, you should have no problems. Its not as intuitive as turn the screw, replace the jets. However its certainly not rocket science.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

And then there's John Deere, who doesn't want to give up their puter info to owners or mechanice that aren't working for deere.

If, it doesn't run right, you HAVE to bring it to them! As they say, when you buy "their" tractor, you are just leasing the puter info from them, THEY continue to own the system and you HAVE to go back to them.

That's just NOT the way I want my tractors to be!

SR

 

[buickanddeere]

And then there's John Deere, who doesn't want to give up their puter info to owners or mechanice that aren't working for deere.

If, it doesn't run right, you HAVE to bring it to them! As they say, when you buy "their" tractor, you are just leasing the puter info from them, THEY continue to own the system and you HAVE to go back to them.

That's just NOT the way I want my tractors to be!

SR

Think it's only Deere that does that?

 

[dickfoster]

And then there's John Deere, who doesn't want to give up their puter info to owners or mechanice that aren't working for deere.

If, it doesn't run right, you HAVE to bring it to them! As they say, when you buy "their" tractor, you are just leasing the puter info from them, THEY continue to own the system and you HAVE to go back to them.

That's just NOT the way I want my tractors to be!

SR

So what's so different about an ECU from any other Deere specific part? You gonna go out and buy a Deere made casting in the aftermarket, I think not.

 

[adventure bob]

You can work on JD stuff, however your prbly not prepared to go buy a scan/diagnostic tool for it. I have friends who work at third party field maint companies, they work on JD all the time. A snap on Verus is $5k, the Pro Link is $3.5K. The code keys are additional.

 

[Garandman]

When you buy software, you aren't buying the code: you are buying the right to use the code. The question was whether a manufacturer could lawfully prevent anyone from changing code - or even looking at it.

Think it's only Deere that does that?

GM also joined the argument.
We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership | WIRED

It makes sense to John Deere: The company argues that allowing people to alter the software—even for the purpose of repair—would “make it possible for pirates, third-party developers, and less innovative competitors to free-ride off the creativity, unique expression and ingenuity of vehicle software.” The pièce de résistance in John Deere’s argument: permitting owners to root around in a tractor’s programming might lead to pirating music through a vehicle’s entertainment system.

....General Motors told the Copyright Office that proponents of copyright reform mistakenly “conflate ownership of a vehicle with ownership of the underlying computer software in a vehicle.”

But they lost, temporarily. Three year exemption while they sort it out.
Forbes

Supporters of Class 21, however, argued that researchers needed access to vehicles’ code to uncover potential vulnerabilities and that anyone who paid for a product should be able to alter it how they wished. Cars have become increasingly connected in recent years, providing more functionality but opening up potential weaknesses that could be exposed by malicious hackers. Tinkerers also see the added connectivity as an avenue for modification.

Their case was helped by a year that saw numerous issues raised with vehicles’ security, including a remote control attack on a Jeep and hacks of the OBD 2 port used for car monitoring and maintenance. The Volkswagen scandal, where software was used to make it appear the car was adhering to emissions standards when it was not, may also have provided more reasons to allow independent testers to probe automobiles’ code.

I have a product called an AccessPort on my Subaru WRX that monitors and can read out what the computer and engine are doing, and even change the tune on the fly if, for example, you were in an area that didn't have 93 Octane fuel. Subaru has even covered warranty claims on engines with "reflashed" ECU's (that often raise peak boost, for example).

Ford now sells factory tunes for more HP, and Honda has tested it.Jeep dealers usually ignore them or set them back to stock. Some other manufacturers have been much less friendly, like Audi/VW, BMW, GM, Porsche and Mitsubishi.

 

[CCWKen]

I don't have a problem with "software code" being proprietary. The very computer you're typing on has that. What needs to be explained is the difference between code and data. What JD and many of other manufactures are claiming is essentially the same as them saying everything you type on your computer belongs to Microsoft*, Apple or whatever because they own the operating system software. Computers and the software code are nothing more than decision makers that use data to make the decisions. The decision of an engine computer to add more fuel is based on a data table. If certain parameters fall outside of the data table(s), the computer adjusts the amount of fuel supplied to the engine to bring it back in the range of the data table. What most "tuning" tools do is modify the data table(s). They don't actually change the software code. While the code may be proprietary, the data should be open and free. It is on automobiles as shown by most OBDII diagnostic tools. You can watch the data in real-time.

If you're using QuickBooks software to manage your finances and you enter all your private info does QB own that data? NO!

If you store contacts on your phone does the phone manufacture then own your contact list? NO!

What JD wants is not only to own the code but also to own the data.

*Special Note: If you are using Windows 10, you may have unknowingly agreed to released all your data and usage to Microsoft.

 

[Industrial Toys]

A friend was just voicing his disgust that he can't get front end parts for a 20 year old Kubota. Given some time, this won't be an issue.

With a thousand feet of wire, four hundred connections, thirty sensors and a digital LCD dash panel , I doubt many of these tractors will be working in twenty years.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I use to know a guy that had a 10 year old Kubota (about 30hp) that needed a front ring/pinion, his tractor had already been sitting for 6 months... Kubota didn't have it any more and he couldn't find one in stock at any dealer.

Last I heard, he was hoping one would turn up at a salvage yard...

I haven't heard from him in a while, so I don't know if he still even has the tractor any longer...

BTW, he shelled out that R/P digging stumps out with the loader.

SR

 

[4570Man]

Remember, the computer and its diagnostics are designed so the "average" tech can do the work with minimal training and/or knowledge of computers. If the guy at my Chrysler dealer can do it, you should have no problems. Its not as intuitive as turn the screw, replace the jets. However its certainly not rocket science.

The difference is he has loads of specialized tools that we don't. The biggest problem is in 20 years from now when no one has those tools.

 

[40_acre_mule]

And how many of us have had a laptop crash? Who can troubleshoot that?
When your car/truck/tractor computer crashes....

Even with diagnostic equipment, you still can't fix the computer.

 

[90cummins]

Reliability of automobiles is driven by demand, competition and the government requirement for X number of years & miles a vehicle must operate due to emission requirements.
The aftermarket also allows us to diagnose and repair our vehicles at minimal cost.
Compact Tractor Manufactures on the other hand will never be pressured to support their product like the automotive market and don’t count on NAPA, Advance Auto or Auto Zone to carry replacement parts or diagnostic equipment.
Just imagine a warning light coming on requiring you to operate your CUT for 30 minutes at a high power level to regenerate the cat or DPF while moving leaves.
While the computer controlled engines (vehicles) operate much more efficiently and are very reliable in the (Automotive Sector) I would not feel comfortable owning a tier 4 tractor that may be run at power levels below the threshold required to keep the system operational.
Call me old fashioned but My 1990 Dodge Cummins and Ford 1720 CUT has never complained about excessive idling or faltered in any way that put it out of service.
I may use my CUT for hours starting and stopping while cleaning lawn debris or for using my broadcaster to spread fertilizer or seed (low power operation) and it just doesn’t care.
It is used to clear snow in the winter, mow or drive a 25kw pto generator for when the power goes down, I expect it to run at all times.
I repair vehicles and auto and off road equipment and while automotive electronics are impressively reliable I don’t believe off road tier 4 engines are for me.
My Two Cents!
90Cummins