Clear your defensible space

[RobertN]

We had a few houses lost in a wild fire yesterday, about an hour north of here. The first thing the Battalion Chief said on the news report, was to make sure you have a good defensive perimeter around your house.

They showed the house next door to one that burned, only a couple hundred feet away. It had a nice 30-40' area clear of weeds and debri. Firefighters didn't have to work to save the house, the homeowner saved the house by being prepared.

In California, the Dept of Forestry recommends a minimum 30' defense area around a structure, with 100' being preferred.

Remember too, that when a fire crew shows up, they will protect the house that has the best chance to survive, and that will provide the safest work area for the engine and crew.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[RPM]

Thought that this was going to be a militia thread for a moment there!

Good advice on clearing around the house though. I think there's also a fire retardant material you can get that you put in a cannister and attach to the hosepipe. Supposedly you spray it on the house if fire is approaching and it acts as a retardant. Don't know much more about it than that though.

 

[MarkV]

Richard,

Good advice wherever you live. Here in N. Georgia I have seen 4 fires on our mountain in the last 6 years. The last one started as a house fire and burned 250 acres before they got things under control. There is an old logging road at the top of our property that the dozers used as a fire line. After about 10 hours of work thing were under control, they thought. The wife went back to the city and I stayed the night to just make sure. Next morning about 5:00 I could see that the fire had jumped the line and was now on its way down hill towards the house. Back come the dozers and pumper trucks. This time my tractor trail, 20 ft behind the house became the fire break and they backfired to stop things. Sure felt good about the 2 pumper trucks sitting in my parking area to watch the house. Yes, we have done some clearing around the place. Its just to dang steep for the tractor and I hate doing that stuff by hand when I have a great little TLB sitting there.

MarkV

 

[Harv]

Thanks for the advice, Robert, especially since you're in the same part of the country my property is in.

Seems like all I do when I go up there is deal with weeds. Got to be so much work that last year I up and bought a tractor. Have I mentioned that here? /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Last year I sprayed as much as I could with Roundup, and after the weeds were good and dead, I ran around with the boxscraper and scraped the soil clean. I guess I should be tilling them under, but that's just one more attachment I don't have yet.

Since I got to the weeds before they went to seed, I have about 70% fewer in that area this year. Really an amazing difference! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif This year I plan to establish that 30-foot perimeter in such a way that I can tractor the whole thing all the way around the structures. Might take a lot of seat time, but I'm up for that. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[RMulkey]

Robert,

Good advice. I have a question for you about fire hose and pumps. I was thinking about putting a 1-1/2" fire hose on my pond pump. The local pipe supply (Sierra Pipe in Auburn) has 50' lengths of hose for $75. My pump is 2hp and is rated at 60 GPM at 40PSI or 30 GPM at 60PSI. Here is my question: Is this enough pump to push a fire hose?? Do you have a suggestion for other sources?

FYI// I spent yerstday putting in~3000 feet of 2" irrigation pipe (on my vacation) so the pipe location is not a issue.

Thanks,
-Roger

 

[patrickg]

I'm not Robert but here's $.02 worth. If you ever had the misfortune to actually fight a "REAL" fire with your pump and hose I think you would have rather had (In best Tim Allen tradition) M O R E P O W E R !!! To be usefull you will probably need several lengths of hose. TSC sells fiber reinforced plastic hose that rolls flat for storage in 100 ft lengths. (convenience/weight tradeoff) More hose is more line loss. I never heard anyone complain they had too much volume and pressure available at the nozzle when they fought a fire. In 10 years of coastal search and rescue (previous situation), I never met anyone who wasn't looking for a bigger extinguisher if they had used one in an actual fire emergency. My pond pump is 5 HP and it doesn't make me as comfortable as I would like to be. Remember, your pressure volume product (nozzle pressure times delivered volume at that pressure) will be significantly less than the pump rating at the end of a sufficiently long hose.

Patrick

P.S. Regarding the militia comment: The fire break will serve to remove opportunities for concealment as they close in on your position and give you a clearer field of fire.

 

[GlueGuy]

The only issue we have here is the county is now demanding folks to install a 500GPM pumper to make sure "enough" water is delivered to the fire truck. Only problem with that thought is that 500GPM would drain our 10K gallon tank in 20 minutes.

I actually think the gravity feed we have to the tank is sufficient to drain that fast anyway. When we open up the hydrant, it shoots about 30' across the driveway (through a 2 1/5" fitting).

I don't ever want to have to test it.

The GlueGuy

 

[GlennT]

I ran across an idea recently in Countryside Magazine and I'll throw out for what it's worth. A man who owns an old frame house with a wood-shingled roof wrote in about his efforts to reduce the fire hazard. He has a lawn sprinkler (it sounded like one of the Rain Bird types) mounted on the roof ridge, with a pipe running down the roof, over the edge and near a door. A valve is located at a convenient height near the door. When things are very dry and there is a possibilty of a fire, this man turns on the sprinkler at intervals and keeps the shingles wet. If a fire did occur and tree-tops were burning near the house, I imagine that the shingles would dry out rather quickly and catch on fire; however, this system might take care of sparks and embers that settle on the roof. Anyway, it sounded like an ingenious idea even though I have no need to implement such a system myself; I am blessed with a stone house and a metal roof.

 

[RPM]

The stuff I mentioned in an earlier post that can be sprayed on is called barricade gel. I've never used it but have seen it on TV - thought some of you might be interested. They have a homeowners version too.

 

[GlueGuy]

The ones they have around here are either self-powered diesel/gas/propane engine pumps, or a generator coupled to a high-capacity electric pump.

Everyone here is on a well. We pump from the well into our own storage tanks (10K gallons in our case). Based on square footage, the county requires so many gallons of fire water (they wanted us to have 4500 gallons, we doubled that).

The creek is so far down the mountain, it would take 1/2 a day to hike a hose down there, and I don't think you could suck it up the 1000' elevation anyway. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

There is a lake about a mile away, but the same goes for it. It's about 800' below us, and would take too long coming/going.

If they had a "porta tank" (they don't), finding places to fill it would be a big problem.

The GlueGuy

 

[RobertN]

I've been out a few days...

When we pump, we're looking for 100psi at the nozzle, and will set that variable gallon nozzle to about 35gpm when attacking a wild fire. From there, we can vary the gallons as needed, up to about 125gpm on a wildland nozzle.

I would be curious about the nozzle specs. I looked at Northern Tool; they advertise a nozzle, but not flow or pressure specs. Note they also list thier nozzle for prevention, not fire fighting.

Based on your higher pressure figure, if your nozzle could flow 30gpm, you would have:
At pump: 60psi
at nozzle, 50' hose: 59psi
at nozzle, 100' hose: 58psi
at nozzle, 200' hose: 56psi

So, in the best case, you can figure having between 55-60 psi at the nozzle.

So... would that be enough to push a fire hose? No. But, that should work a LOT better than a garden hose, and combined with a good defensible space, would give you coverage till crews could arrive.

I wouldn't mind having that capability at my house...

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[RobertN]

Yes, MORE POWER! When you can pump at 100+psi, you can get a stream out farther, keeping you farther from the flames and heat.

With voulme, if you have a water source that can support it, that is great. If you are on a engine, that 300-500 tank has to go a long ways, so you have to be carefule about volume there. You want to leave some reserve too, in case you get in trouble..

fyi, the calculation for friction loss is CQ2L. C is a coefficient, in the case of 1-1/2 hose is 24. L is length/100. Q is flow/100.

For Roger's example, with 100' of 1-1/2" hose:
FL=(24)(30/100)2(100/100)
FL=(24)(0.09)(1)
FL=2.16, or basically 2
So, for 100' of 1-1/2" hose, at 30gpm, expect 2psi loss due to friction

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[RobertN]

Do they want you to supply the pump? That sounds wierd, especially given the expense. The best Northern shows is 10,000gph, wich would be 165gpm, for $1000.

The engine/truck should be able to pump off your tank, if the correct outlet is supplied. Heck, the head pressure from that big of a tank should give them plent of pressure and flow.

Interesting... I wonder how they are figuring that.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[JATO_RaT]

Patrick first of all, let me comment on your last comment, hehehehehehe...
About your first comment, I have a place up in Lake Tahoe California. A fire broke out one evening at a nearby cabin, I jumped to my feet to do what I could. The volunteer pumper truck appeared and we immediately dragged about 300' of 4" hose to a hydrant with a 4" supply. We turn it on and I'm expecting some big stuff to happen. Pumper truck fires up its big huge diesel powered pump, fire guys sitting at the big water cannon mounted to the massve truck and water flies. hundreds of feet across the house. I figure 3 or 4 minutes of this and the fires history. 15 minutes later the fires as big as ever. At that time the real fire men arrive with saws, respirators etc and enter the fully engulfed cabin. As it turned out, the pumper was just controlling the fire from taking out trees and spreading. They said that they would never be able to put out the fire with just the pumper cannon. I figured a 200HP plus pump, a 4" supply would be good, now I'd like about a 18" to 24" pipe supply with perhaps 60,000 or 70,000 lb thrust jet pump all hooked up to a D10 cat. Rat...

 

[JATO_RaT]

Robert, I have all green pasture which I mow every other week irrigated by PCWA ditch water, don't you? Seriously, you are right on. 15 minutes of warning to get out of your place is hardly the time to think about clearing your area. I am being constantly reminded of the fire season as living slightly north of you I get to see alot of fire fighting air tankers and helicopters. It makes me wish I could help. The fire burning up near Truckee as I type has some of the largest fire fighting equipment in the world pouring in. Idaho, Oregon and other states are pouring in to work the fire. The monster twin prop helicopters are picking up loads out of the Truckee river. A new heavy fire fighting plane that simply skims the surface of a lake up pulls in thousands of gallons of water in a matter of seconds and can be back dumping water on the hot spots. Its a site to see and I'm afraid its just starting. Rat...

 

[JATO_RaT]

RMulkey, anything is better then nothing. When a fire hits your area its not uncommon for it to take out the power. A gas run pump is probably the best answer if you have a fire. The best choice is as RobertN of Shingle Springs mentioned. Where about's are you in Placer county. I'm off Auburn /Folsom road in Newcastle. I've used Sierra pipe for larger items. Rat...

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

So this storage tank and pump is just for fighting fire? Drained in the winter? The gas or genset run pump makes sense, in the event of a forest fire the power might be out. Actually, the whole system kinda makes sense, its just the logistics of it that's boggling my mind /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif. They MAKE you install this? Is the tank buried or above ground?

I wonder, with that much water and pumping ability how many fires get put out without the fire department even getting called? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I have never heard of anything like it around here. Water's never more than a few miles away. I did see them commandeer the contents of a swimming pool once. The swimming pool was a block away and the lake was 2 blocks. Owner of the pool wasn't too happy about it, /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif but they refilled it for him next day with nice fresh water from town.

SHF

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

<font color=blue> its a sight to see </font color=blue>

Can you get a picture? National news has mentioned Truckee fire, but not shown much for pictures. Can you get a pick of the big plane?

Got a buddy on the DNR. (Always make friends with law enforcement-- just in case /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif). If the fire keeps going they may call him to go help. Last time they gave him 1/2 hour notice, stuffed him on a plane and sent him to Chicago. Pulled a bunch of volunteers off the streets of Chicago (press gang?) and gave him 7 days to train them. Then they loaded the whole bunch of them in a plane and sent them out west. He goes just about every year and usually comes back with enough pay to do something major. (Side the house, etc.) Half the places they send him to don't even have roads, and some of the stories get pretty hair raising (okay, occasionally eyebrow raising, too /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif).

SHF

 

[GlueGuy]

What they actually require is a specified "pressure" at the hydrant. If you don't have enough head pressure, they demand the pump.

I probably (/w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif) miss-quoted the size of the pump, as I was paraphrasing another neighbor who is fighting having to install one. He's had his system installed (and approved) for 20 years. He did a remodel to the back patio, and moved the hydrant. Now they say he doesn't have enough head pressure. Funny thing is the hydrant shoots water about 30' when he opens it up...

I get about the same pressure as him, so if I remodel anything, they will probably get on my butt too.

Yes, they require the home owner to supply the pump.

The GlueGuy