CK27 won't start

Billrog · Dec 27, 2015

My CK27 with 150 hrs. decided not to start a couple days ago . Turns over fast enough to bring the oil pressure up in 5 sec. and all the lights work. Fuel is good but not a lick of smoke out of the exhaust. I've eliminated it down to the fuel shut off solenoid . With the backhoe I can over ride it with a piece of hay wire by pulling the rod out by don't know how to do it with this one. I'm going to try and figure out which fuse or relay deals with it any advice would be appreciate. Thank you, Bill.

ritcheyvs · Dec 27, 2015

Billrog,

I assume you have the stop solenoid on the front (vs side) of the engine. You say you have isolated the problem to the stop solenoid, right? I assume that means you do NOT hear the distinct SS "clack" when the key is turned to "On".

If all of this is correct...
This solenoid has two coils, a high current "pull" coil that gets power for only about a second when the switch is turned to ON and a low "hold" coil that stays powered as long as the key switch is on. It sounds like you aren't getting the "pull" current to the stop solenoid. There is a relay that powers the "pull" coil so you might check that relay. Beyond that, the circuit that generates the 1 sec pulse to the relay varies with the year (s/n) and model (e.g. clutch or HST) of your tractor. So we'd need that to discuss possible problems beyond the relay.

Billrog · Dec 27, 2015

Thank you it's hst 2014 I will go check the relays there are 3 of them on the fire wall? I'll start with the first one.

Coyote machine · Dec 27, 2015

Billrog said:
Thank you it's hst 2014 I will go check the relays there are 3 of them on the fire wall? I'll start with the first one.

Two of them should be the same relay, if so, swap them out and see if it makes a difference.
And see if when cranking you only get fast crank and no start, wait a second, turn the key all the way off, wait a second, then try cranking again. For some reason, when my DK-40 cranks fast, if I only back the key off crank instead of going all the way to off it won't start. If I instead go all the way to off and try again I get the 'click' and the tractor starts immediately. That might indicate a weak coil or it not being energized. I know it's not the exact same symptom as yours, BUT if you can get it to start this way with either of the two same relays it will help pinpoint the cause. Good luck, post back results.

Billrog · Dec 27, 2015

Thank you fellas, I was able to push the tractor into my workshop with the backhow so now it will be more comfortable to play with. Left an email with the dealer to have his service tech. phone me in the morning and 1/2 hr. later he phoned me to say he would go to the shop and put a new shut of solenoid out side for me to pick up. He said to check if it was working put my hand on it and turn the key on I should feel it kick in but I couldn't feel anything. I'm going back out to the shop in a while and I'll try all the info given TY for your time.

ritcheyvs · Dec 27, 2015

Ref CM's comment: The Display Unit sends the 1-sec pulse (ground) to the relay coil only when power is first applied via the key switch. That's why you must turn the switch full off and then back on (to reset the display unit timer) to energize the pull coil relay.

For Billrog: The stop solenoid is probably not the real problem. At least one other owner replaced this solenoid only to learn his problem was elsewhere. You can test the solenoid pull function (while it's installed) by running a jumper wire from battery positive to the pull terminal on the stop solenoid connector. The resulting current is high so only connect it momentarily or you might melt the wire or burn your hand. You'll get a spark when you pull the wire away so don't do this if combustibles (like gasoline vapors) are present.

This should be the schematic for your stop solenoid operation:

The top wire in this picture is energized (12v) whenever the key is ON (including crank and preheat positions). There are two fuses you should check; if either was bad, the stop solenoid would not function. But if the fuses, the relay, the stop solenoid, and connecting wires are OK, the display unit is suspect. For the 1-sec pulse, the display unit grounds one end of the relay coil (other end is 12v if key is on). If the relay is OK but the SS still doesn't work, you might be able to test this with a volt meter by measuring the voltage at the relay coil connections as the key switch is turned from OFF to ON. One side of the coil should remain at 12v and the other should go to 0v for one second.

Billrog · Dec 27, 2015

ritcheyvs I switched the relays and the tractor started right up. Tried it a second time and it started again so I buttoned things up open the dr. went to start it to drive out and nothing. now I don't even have a click at the starter. Dash lights and all the lights work just no juice to the starter. When I hold my hand on the second relay or the shut off solenoid I can feel them both energize now. All the fuses are good so in the morning I'll try and trouble shoot the no juice to the starter if it's still a problem after I change the relay that I can't feel activate. TY for the schematic.

Billrog · Dec 27, 2015

I've had the rest of my equipment long enough that when there's a problem I can jump right on it and get it fixed. New tractor quits and I just sit there looking stupid not know which way to turn

:confused3:. Tomorrow I'll take my time and follow everything threw then I'll report so you fellas and others may have an easier time if the same thing occurs. I always try and start with the simple things and 90% of the time that's where the problem is as long as I don't double guess myself & make a mt. out of a mole hill.

ritcheyvs · Dec 28, 2015

Billrog said:
ritcheyvs I switched the relays and the tractor started right up. Tried it a second time and it started again so I buttoned things up open the dr. went to start it to drive out and nothing. now I don't even have a click at the starter. Dash lights and all the lights work just no juice to the starter. When I hold my hand on the second relay or the shut off solenoid I can feel them both energize now. All the fuses are good so in the morning I'll try and trouble shoot the no juice to the starter if it's still a problem after I change the relay that I can't feel activate. TY for the schematic.

Did you replace the SS relay with a brand new one or (as I suspect) swap it with a similar one already on the tractor firewall? The similar relay was (probably) the start relay, which powers the starter solenoid. If that's the case, you moved the sick relay from the SS pull circuit to the starter circuit, and now the starter won't work. If this guesswork is correct, go to a local car parts place and buy a new relay. These relays are standard automotive parts; no need to get an official Kioti part. Take one of the old relays to the car parts store (e.g. Advance, AutoZone, Orielly's, Pep Boys, etc.) as a sample. You'll want one with contacts rated for at least 30 amps, 40 is better. Good luck.

By the way, these tractors generally have three similar (sometimes identical) relays on the "firewall" for the stop solenoid (pull coil), the starter solenoid, and the glow plugs. Several owners have reported failures or intermittent function of one of these relays, but start or glow relay failures seem more common. Getting a replacement relay with higher contact amperage rating can't hurt and may be more reliable over time. The fact these tend to fail implies the stock item may be under-rated.

Billrog · Dec 28, 2015

ritcheyvs thank you you've answered a few ? I've was wondering about. When I bought the tractor the sales man told me if it ever failed to start to check that relay first. I'm going to do as you say and buy a couple larger amp relays & keep the left over one for a spare.