ck25 and starting problem

[whitetailchaser]

I have a 05 ck 25 and last week I was working with it and it cut off. I started it back up and it cut off after a few seconds. When I started it again it went to full throttle by itself, I tried to cut it off by the key but it kept running and had to stall It out. Now it will not start. Turns over fine, fuel flow to bowl seems to be fine. Any ideas of what I can try. Desperate. Whitetail chaser.

 

[ritcheyvs]

These symptoms sound like another case of a broken gear tooth in the injection pump.

See the sticky post at the top of the Kioti Owing/Operating forum and also the linked spreadsheet in that post. Bernty has a current thread which is likely the same problem (http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/321760-kioti-ck30-will-not-start.html) so you may want to read that vs my trying to repeat all here.

If it's your IP the fix isn't hard but it is costly unless you can get the IP repaired locally. Kioti only sells new IPs and they ain't cheap.

 

[DK35vince]

These symptoms sound like another case of a broken gear tooth in the injection pump.

See the sticky post at the top of the Kioti Owing/Operating forum and also the linked spreadsheet in that post. Bernty has a current thread which is likely the same problem (http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/321760-kioti-ck30-will-not-start.html) so you may want to read that vs my trying to repeat all here.

If it's your IP the fix isn't hard but it is costly unless you can get the IP repaired locally. Kioti only sells new IPs and they ain't cheap.

Yet another possible Injector pump issue.
It never ends.
Maybe Kioti should include an extra IP with every purchase.
At the very least they should make the gears available to repair a pump instead of full replacement since they do not seem to hold up well on several years models.

 

[ritcheyvs]

As far as I can tell, these IP gear tooth problems are limited to tractors with the second version of the stop solenoid. Depending on the model, this occurred between 2005 and 2007, I think. This is the version with the stop solenoid on the front of the block (vs externally on the right side) and with only two wires to the solenoid (vs the three wire pull-hold version). I would be interested to know if anyone has a counterexample where IP gear teeth failed in a tractor with the first (external) or third (3-wire) version of the stop solenoid.

I suspect this second version of the stop solenoid spring was marginally too strong for these gears. Others suspect a batch of gears which were too hard (incorrect heat treat) arrived during that period. Conestoga Diesel told me that this is a common failure in agricultural Diesel IPs. At the time, they never heard of Kioti so they must have observed this failure in other brands. But I suspect you don't hear about this problem much with the other brands because the company and dealers absorb some of the cost.

 

[whitetailchaser]

I have found that you were right. The gears were broken. Pulled it today and found I could turn 180 degrees and it should work. got it all together and had fuel in one cylinder. But the battery went dead. Going to charge battery and try again. Do I have to time the injectors as I re-install. found another thread that showed how one persons gears and shaft was positioned, but did not notice how mine was while in tear-down mode. Was unaware if this made a difference. Will try again in the AM and hope it all comes together. Any ideas or info on position of the shaft and the rocker arm would be great. Thanks again, whitetailchaser.

 

[ritcheyvs]

The IP does not need to be re-timed as long as all the shims and gaskets between the IP and the block are same as before. The overall timing is set by these shims. It is important that IP parts go back into the same position (e.g. front, back, center) when reassembled; they are matched sets. Cleanliness is very important in all fuel system parts downstream of the fuel filter. When rotating the gear 180 degrees make sure it's not a tooth off. Likewise, all plungers need to be aligned as original, it's possible to put the plunger in 180 degrees out (that would be a bad thing). It will take some cranking to purge all the air out of the IP and fuel pipes. Crack the b-nut at the injector to help purge those lines.

 

[whitetailchaser]

Happy to report the CK25 is back up and running!! So grateful for the info found here! I played the 180 degree trick and it worked like a charm. Hats off to RitcheyVs and several others, Burt for the photos and yes mine has the 2 wire valve.
thanks again.
whitetailchaser

 

[VictorW]

As far as I can tell, these IP gear tooth problems are limited to tractors with the second version of the stop solenoid. Depending on the model, this occurred between 2005 and 2007, I think. This is the version with the stop solenoid on the front of the block (vs externally on the right side) and with only two wires to the solenoid (vs the three wire pull-hold version). I would be interested to know if anyone has a counterexample where IP gear teeth failed in a tractor with the first (external) or third (3-wire) version of the stop solenoid.

I have a 2004 CK30hst, serial starts with a "D". External stop solenoid. No problems at @800 hours. I just bring it to idle before stopping. Glad I didn't wait a year to buy and have to either turn the gears 180 for who knows how many hours more or pay @$1000 for a part.

 

[VictorW]

As far as I can tell, these IP gear tooth problems are limited to tractors with the second version of the stop solenoid. Depending on the model, this occurred between 2005 and 2007, I think. This is the version with the stop solenoid on the front of the block (vs externally on the right side) and with only two wires to the solenoid (vs the three wire pull-hold version). I would be interested to know if anyone has a counterexample where IP gear teeth failed in a tractor with the first (external) or third (3-wire) version of the stop solenoid.

I have a 2004 CK30hst, serial starts with a "D". External stop solenoid. No problems at @800 hours. I just bring it to idle before stopping. Glad I didn't wait a year to buy and have to either turn the gears 180 for who knows how many hours more or pay @$1000 for a part.

 

[ritcheyvs]

As far as I can tell, these IP gear tooth problems are limited to tractors with the second version of the stop solenoid. Depending on the model, this occurred between 2005 and 2007, I think. This is the version with the stop solenoid on the front of the block (vs externally on the right side) and with only two wires to the solenoid (vs the three wire pull-hold version). I would be interested to know if anyone has a counterexample where IP gear teeth failed in a tractor with the first (external) or third (3-wire) version of the stop solenoid.

I suspect this second version of the stop solenoid spring was marginally too strong for these gears. Others suspect a batch of gears which were too hard (incorrect heat treat) arrived during that period. Conestoga Diesel told me that this is a common failure in agricultural Diesel IPs. At the time, they never heard of Kioti so they must have observed this failure in other brands. But I suspect you don't hear about this problem much with the other brands because the company and dealers absorb some of the cost.

I must confess that I WAS WRONG. After reviewing parts diagrams and service manuals, I now believe there is no 3-wire version of the stop solenoid. Just two versions:

(1) the original version on the right side of the engine which operated the manual stop linkage when it received a pulse when the switch was turned off and

(2) the new two-coil version (pull and hold) on the front of the engine block which has only two actual wires (grounded through the block). This second version pushes directly on the front of the IP rack to push it back to the full-off position by spring force when power is removed.

The switch-over from type 1 to type 2 seems to have occurred at various times between 2005 and 2008, depending on tractor model. My 2006 DK45S model switched in the middle of the 2005 model year but the only available DK45S/DK451 service manual shows only the old version. That is one of several reasons I got confused.

I still think that all reported IP gear failures occurred in tractors from the first few production years with the new (type 2) stop solenoid (on the front of the engine block).

It is important to remember that this gear failure problem is not typical; most IP gears have NOT failed and probably will not. In IPs with failed gears, only one (of three or four) gears actually failed. If nothing else, this gives hope that the 180 degree fix should last a long time.

Scott