cheap tool alert

[Soundguy]

I dropped by harbor freight today and had to pick up a few things. My old 6" chop saw went south a while back while cutting some 1" round stock.. and after finishing the job with a hacksaw I've bene on the lookout for a new chop saw.

Harbor freight has a 14"/2hp chopsaw on sale for a whopping 49.99$ It was too cheap too pass up.. I had to pick it up. Box claims it to have double insulated inards.. etc. The floor display looked good, turned over smooth, shield and grip guards fit well.. etc. if it works half as good as it looks, it should do fine for hobbiest shop type work.

Also noticed they had the auto darkening welding hoods on sale for 39$.. again.. had to pick one up. It will darken by striking a match or turning a flashlight on. Adjusts from 9-13 shade, has a fast / slow setting, and has a rechargeable bat / solar cell. Comes with a face plate and plate retainer replacement in the box... only a 90 day warranty.. but the extended warranty is 5$ if ya want it.. etc.. Has a nice padded easy adjustable head band.. I can't wait to try it out on some burning metal.

I also notice that it claims to block 100% ir and uv, even when not shaded.. I take that as a good thing.. etc..

I do have a question though, about shade levels.

My 'regular' helmet is a 11 shade.. so. uh.. what shade levels are recomended for what applications..e tc. ( I have an ac stick welder.. etc.. )

Soundguy

 

[MrJimi]

Shade 10 is the norm
Jim

 

[Farmwithjunk]

BIL is a welder. He told me that you need to use as dark as you can stand when doing any welding. NEVER go less than 10. He uses 11. That's what I've started using now. Anything less than 10 is OK for cutting torch or grinding.

 

[scott_vt]

Also noticed they had the auto darkening welding hoods on sale for 39$.. again.. had to pick one up.

Soundguy

Mornin Chris,
Wow, that is a good price !

 

[Soundguy]

BIL is a welder. He told me that you need to use as dark as you can stand when doing any welding. NEVER go less than 10. He uses 11. That's what I've started using now. Anything less than 10 is OK for cutting torch or grinding.

My regular helmet is a #11.. though... I can see easilly when welding.. thus i guess the auto helmet if it goes to 12 or 13.. I may try those settings.

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

My regular helmet is a #11.. though... I can see easilly when welding.. thus i guess the auto helmet if it goes to 12 or 13.. I may try those settings.

Soundguy

Among other things, my eyesight isn't what it used to be. I try my best to take care of what I have left. I asked BIL about auto-darkening hoods. He said that full-time welders don't care much for their disadvantage, but the occasional user seems to like them for their advantages. I had to bite on that one. "What's the DISADVANTAGE"? He told me that you had this milisecond response time between flash and reaching darkened stage. With thousands of arcs struck by a full-time welder, that would add up and do damage to his eyes. Makes sense.

But they're sure popular with the occasional users. I can see where they'd be REALLY nice welding small parts where it's hard to see anyway. With the rising popularity of cheaper wire feed mig welders, there's lots of opportunities to weld little stuff for us amatures.

I've got a little Lincoln mig. On monday, our repair shop mechanic was tossing a Porter Cable "sawzall" that had the foot broken off. He said a replacement part was almost as much as a new saw. (I find that hard to believe. I think he just wanted a new saw, and recognized an opportunity to get rid of his old one) I took it home, removed the foot, ground everything and fired up the welder. I used the saw last night to cut off some fence post's. Works like a charm. A good welder and a good torch set-up will pay for itself over time.

 

[Dargo]

Well, I've made it clear in the past that I found the HF chop saw unacceptable, and that my trash man wouldn't even take it. Hopefully you have better luck and do not use it for anything very thick. Anyway, on the HF hood I've also mentioned that they flash the crap out of me. Many here claim that they do not get blinded. An interesting take on that is looking at a person's critical flicker frequency and seeing the initial flash. A person's critical flicker frequency is the point at which a person sees a light as a constant light although it is actually flashing. With a CRT monitor set at 60hz refresh rate will cause most people to be able to see the monitor flickering if they look slightly to the side of the monitor. Move the refresh rate up to 72hz and most people no longer see the flicker. Where am I going with this you ask. I still see it flickering at 75hz.

In college John Hopkins University sent some medical students to test athletes in certain sports to see how their CCF varied from the "average" person. Most of your professional baseball players, ping pong players, tennis players etc have a higher CCF than average. Some medical professionals say that people who have better hand-eye coordination generally have a higher CCF. It turned out that I had a relatively high CCF when measured. What does that have to do with a cheap AD hood? I'm thinking that people with an average CCF do not see the initial blinding flash on the cheaper hoods whereas I do. The issue, if this is true, is that if you are not seeing the flash (but others like me do), you are still getting flashed but just not registering the flash. If this is true, even if you don't see the flash on the cheap hoods, you are still getting flashed and, therefore, would still end up with permanent eye damage over time.

Whether that is true or not, the fact remains that every cheap HD hood I've tried flashed the crap out of me every time when I used a MIG welder. With an arc welder the initial bright flash is preceeded by smaller sparks that allow the hood to darken in time to protect from the bright flash. You may say that you've used a cheap HF AD hood and you can still see. I'll tell you that an average professional welder is usually flashed hundreds of times before the symptoms of permanent damage appear.

It's just something to think of. Although it's true that I do not care for junk tools and equipment and, therefore, do not care for most of what HF sells, putting your eyesight at risk to save a few bucks isn't worth it. Obviously, I wouldn't care if the HF AD hoods were free, I wouldn't use one. But, I like my eyesight; even if most all flourescent lights look like strobe lights to me.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Dargo, that's the most detailed explaination I've heard to date on why AD hoods aren't what they're cracked up to be. Thanks for the education. I'm notoriously "cheap". Anyone who knows me will tell you that. My son used to tell his friends I wouldn't give a nickel to see a mosquito eat a bale of hay. That said, I don't care for "cheap tools". In the end, they're usually not so cheap. Whenever I've took the cheap route on tools, I've almost always had to spend the money to buy a BETTER tool after the cheap one broke. I buy for the long haul. In a few rare instances, I've bought cheaper tools when I know I'm going to destroy something, or it's a sure bet it will get lost in a minute. But if I'm buying to use long term, make mine top-shelf stuff.

 

[SkyPup]

Ignore your eyes and they will go away.....

 

[MossRoad]

O.K. Here's some more information and good reading...

Read this article.

A Look at Auto-Darkening Welding Helmets, Eye Protection

Note the many references to ANSI Z87.1.

Then read the specs on this helmet at Harbor Freight and note that it does meet this standard.

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Therefore, I think it is a safe helmet to use... Except, the standard is -1989. There are newer standards, so this needs to be investigated a bit more. someone else do this, as I need to get some work done.

 

[kossetx]

Soundguy, I started a post about this helmet when I saw it for that price. This AD shield is fine for me. I have only used it for about 2 hours total welding time, andI have never been flashed by it. That is not a "claim", but a fact. You strike a lot of arcs in 2 hours of welding time.

When I first tried it out I couldn't see the weld too well, but then I found out it was on shade 13. I dropped it down to shade 11 and it has worked fine since.

I once bought a 4" angle grinder from Homier for 7.00. I figured for that price if I used it once I would have gotten my money's worth. It CAUGHT FIRE the first time I used it. I didn't get my moneys worth out of it. I don't care for some HFT stuff too, but I do hope your saw works for you. It is hit and miss with this chinese stuff.

 

[neverenough]

Well, I've made it clear in the past that I found the HF chop saw unacceptable, and that my trash man wouldn't even take it. Hopefully you have better luck and do not use it for anything very thick. Anyway, on the HF hood I've also mentioned that they flash the crap out of me. Many here claim that they do not get blinded. An interesting take on that is looking at a person's critical flicker frequency and seeing the initial flash. A person's critical flicker frequency is the point at which a person sees a light as a constant light although it is actually flashing.

I don't want to get into the whole cheap tool debate, but I do agree with the helmet part. I damaged my eye's when I was 19 and couldn't see well in the dark, or weld for years. Took me until a couple years ago to get back into welding. I tried out a couple helmets at the tech school where the oldest boy was in school for welding. The only way I could weld comfortably was with the $320 AD helmet. He was able to get me one through school for $268. Well worth the investment, for me. It has allowed me to weld again, without any concerns of doing more damage to my eyes.

 

[Soundguy]

Lets see...

I only have an arc welder.. no mig.. so that seems positive.

I'm sure the 1/200000 darken time will be better than the # of times I get flashed accidentally when my regular hood doesn't flop down completely.

I'm not a pro welder.. so I have less welding time per month than a pro welder. ( probably have less welding time per year than a pro welder has per week.. )

I'm guessing my eye doctor will tell me when / if he sees damage start... I've had a small arc welder for a few years with no problems yet.

I do know the eye doc can see stuff like that, as he has told me he can tell patients if that have been looking at the sun.. or seen a solar eclipse.. etc..

I've got some small fabrication products to work on tomorrow, so I'll get to try out the chop saw . I'll let everybody know how well it does or doesn't work.. same with the AD hood. If they are both cr@p.. they will be going back.

Soundguy

Well, I've made it clear in the past that I found the HF chop saw unacceptable, and that my trash man wouldn't even take it. Hopefully you have better luck and do not use it for anything very thick. Anyway, on the HF hood I've also mentioned that they flash the crap out of me. Many here claim that they do not get blinded. An interesting take on that is looking at a person's critical flicker frequency and seeing the initial flash. A person's critical flicker frequency is the point at which a person sees a light as a constant light although it is actually flashing. With a CRT monitor set at 60hz refresh rate will cause most people to be able to see the monitor flickering if they look slightly to the side of the monitor. Move the refresh rate up to 72hz and most people no longer see the flicker. Where am I going with this you ask. I still see it flickering at 75hz.

In college John Hopkins University sent some medical students to test athletes in certain sports to see how their CCF varied from the "average" person. Most of your professional baseball players, ping pong players, tennis players etc have a higher CCF than average. Some medical professionals say that people who have better hand-eye coordination generally have a higher CCF. It turned out that I had a relatively high CCF when measured. What does that have to do with a cheap AD hood? I'm thinking that people with an average CCF do not see the initial blinding flash on the cheaper hoods whereas I do. The issue, if this is true, is that if you are not seeing the flash (but others like me do), you are still getting flashed but just not registering the flash. If this is true, even if you don't see the flash on the cheap hoods, you are still getting flashed and, therefore, would still end up with permanent eye damage over time.

Whether that is true or not, the fact remains that every cheap HD hood I've tried flashed the crap out of me every time when I used a MIG welder. With an arc welder the initial bright flash is preceeded by smaller sparks that allow the hood to darken in time to protect from the bright flash. You may say that you've used a cheap HF AD hood and you can still see. I'll tell you that an average professional welder is usually flashed hundreds of times before the symptoms of permanent damage appear.

It's just something to think of. Although it's true that I do not care for junk tools and equipment and, therefore, do not care for most of what HF sells, putting your eyesight at risk to save a few bucks isn't worth it. Obviously, I wouldn't care if the HF AD hoods were free, I wouldn't use one. But, I like my eyesight; even if most all flourescent lights look like strobe lights to me.

 

[Soundguy]

I still have my first 4" angle grinder I got from harbor freight back in the early-mid 90's.. I think I paid 9.99 for it.. It's ratty, and the side handle is long gone.. and the bearing howls on it.. but i use it for the rough and dirty jobs.. My 2nd HF 4" grinder is now about 6ys old.. still looks and works like it did when i bought it... I guess i'm ahead of the game on them so far..

At this point, I'vs had 1 HF tool break due to a defect or materials.. Now.. I have broken 2 others due to something stupid i did.. that would have also broken a major brand.. so i don't count those ).

Soundguy

Soundguy, I started a post about this helmet when I saw it for that price. This AD shield is fine for me. I have only used it for about 2 hours total welding time, andI have never been flashed by it. That is not a "claim", but a fact. You strike a lot of arcs in 2 hours of welding time.

When I first tried it out I couldn't see the weld too well, but then I found out it was on shade 13. I dropped it down to shade 11 and it has worked fine since.

I once bought a 4" angle grinder from Homier for 7.00. I figured for that price if I used it once I would have gotten my money's worth. It CAUGHT FIRE the first time I used it. I didn't get my moneys worth out of it. I don't care for some HFT stuff too, but I do hope your saw works for you. It is hit and miss with this chinese stuff.

 

[Dargo]

I've got some small fabrication products to work on tomorrow, so I'll get to try out the chop saw . I'll let everybody know how well it does or doesn't work.. same with the AD hood. If they are both cr@p.. they will be going back.

Soundguy

Although I wouldn't have one (since I MIG and TIG as well as arc weld), the cheapo AD hood seems to be okay for arc welding. I'm also certain that you know quite well that the HF AD hoods do not actually perform as advertised on response time. Rather than have to test it, my own eyes tell me so when compared to better hoods. Still, with arc welding only, I've never noticed being blinded, so I'm guessing you'll like it.

On their chop saw, you can look it up here somewhere, but when I bought one it burned up on the first use. I took it back for a replacement (mistake). The 2nd one didn't immediately fail, but I think a Dremmel tool has more torque. I took it back as well for an exchange (mistake). In the interim I bought a DeWalt reman online for $99 on eBay. Huge difference, so I gave the 3rd HF chop saw to my dad. A week later he brings it back and says "no thanks". I then put it out with the trash along with a note telling my trash man that it does work, but I bought a better brand. I happened to be there when he picked up my trash. He threw it in the compactor. He said he picks them up all the time and could have a dozen or more by now, but he doesn't want one if everyone throws them away. My guess is that if you do any real cutting at all, you'll return it (don't bother for an exchange - they are all that weak).

I was building my pool house when I bought the chop saws. None of the HF saws could handle cutting 1/2" rebar for use in the footers. I could definitely cut them faster with a hack saw. My $99 DeWalt cut the same rebar in about 3 to 5 seconds.

 

[Soundguy]

I agree.. I do find it a little hard to believe about their shade timing. I will be safe when i test it.. I'll look away from the direct arc, and strick on a piece of scrap so that the helmet sensor can see the arc.. but not my eyes, and I'll see if the shade darkens so i don't get the reflection flash. if it passes that test.. i'll try another strike head on.. If it flashed me.. it's being returned.. I can use my flip down fixed #11 fine.

Same witht he chop saw.. if its a hamster wheel motor.. it will go back too. ( I'm hoping it will be good though... )

Soundguy

 

[schmism]

my 14" cuttoff ($40 on sale) has worked great for the half a dozzen projects ive used it on (mostly cutting 1-1.5" angle iron... some exaust pipe, etc)

 

[HomeBrew2]

Re: lens shades, see attached from Lincoln site.

 

[CharlieTR]

Thanks for the great post SoundGuy. I hope to see more tool alerts here because they include two most important things. Tools and money, things we just can't live without!

 

[fabrej]

I have the 14 inch HF saw you are talking about. I've had it almost a year now. It is not a great saw but the price was. The base is weak and it flexes. You can't push down very hard or the blade seems to twist some. The vice that holds the material to be cut is also not well made and is weak. The motor is not strong enough for very thick material and bogs down easy. If you go slow and are patient, it will cut thick stuff though.

I am almost through my first blade in this saw and it has cut a ton of the stuff that I've welded. Go slow and it will work. When I kill this one, I will buy a name brand next. I am willing to pay 3 or more times the price of the HF saw so that I can get a better quality tool.