Can't keep the engine running...

   / Can't keep the engine running... #1  

LAD1DER

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Joined
Jun 13, 2005
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21
Can\'t keep the engine running...

Okay, here's one for all the International experts. First, let me give you the background.
I have an International 424 with the C-146 gasoline engine.
No problem starting the engine, but, for the first few minutes of operation, the engine sputters, misses, tries to die, and/or pops out through the exhaust when under a load. It'll do this until it eventually evens out, then usually runs fine. I cannot advance the throttle to full, or even 3/4 speed until it works this out.
Now, I'm having trouble keeping it running over 15 or 20 minutes. When trying to mow, it started, went through it's rough wake up time as described above, but, seemed to fall back into that routine when under a load. (I was mowing, 5' bushhog, pretty tall grass). Seemed to run poor especially when under increased load (up hill, thick patch of grass. etc.) It then ran fine for 15 or 20 minutes, not sputtering under load, or any other unusual issue. Then, about 20 minutes into the operation, it just started sputtering and died. It wouldn't start back for about 15 minutes, when it did start, it would fire right back up, and go for another 20 minutes or so.
The last time it started to sputter, I stopped, and tried to advance the throttle to full speed without load. It would not run at full throttle, I'd have to back it down to idle, and slowly move it up. It would start sputtering and want to die around half throttle. It finally died and it stayed where it died overnight. I'm sure when I go out, it'll start, and run for 15 - 20 minutes just fine.
A few things I've looked at:
Radiator is full, seems to be circulating OK. Due to the fact it runs poorly at start up makes me think it's not an overheating problem. No steam venting or coolant purging when it's been running hard and dies, and no smell or noises like it's too hot.
When it dies, the first few times of trying to start usually end with a delayed pop out of the muffler. I figure this is fuel getting pushed out of the cylinders and igniting in the hot muffler, so I assume I've got fuel. I just let it sit for a while and it starts up.
I took off the distributor cap, and it appears dry, and rotor button looks ok, but, I'm by no means an expert on the ignition system.
So there you have it. All you old International gurus see what you can make of it.
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #2  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

I'm no IH expert, but I think your problem is not IH-specific. It sounds completely like a fuel problem.

I'd consider the following, from easy to harder:
- clogged breather hole in gas cap.
- clogged fuel filter, if there is one.
- old and/or unstabilized fuel, resulting in gel deposits in bottom of tank, in filter, or in carb bowl
-plain old bad fuel
-saturated/sunk carb float, keeping carb bowl from filling to proper level

If none of the above apply, I'd still look further into the carb. To your knowledge, has it been rebuilt? That's an old gizmo at this point! Substitute 'dirt' for 'gel' above and you've got another set of possibilities.

All your symptoms - it runs for a while, won't start immediately after but will after sitting, won't take full throttle, popping - point toward fuel.

I've been where you are, exactly, more than once. If you ask repair people, they'll tell you bad fuel is the nemesis of all our smaller engines, especially since the appearance of MTBE additives and the like.

Hope this helps!
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #3  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

as stated check the fuel flow, the screen in the sediment bowl, etc... Some of the symptoms could be ignition related. I have a 2444 with a C153. Check the points as well, mine acted sort of that way and the points were burned.
Ben
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #4  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

I know nothing about the Internatinal either. But in addition to a potential fuel problem, it could also be an electrical problem. Had a car a number of years ago with electronic ignition. When it warmed up to operating temp and the electronic module got hot, it would start missing and sometimes die. Cool off and it would start back up fine. Also had another car many years ago that developed a crack in the distributor cap. Cool started and ran fine. Hot it would start arcing at the cracked cap and die. Took a long time to finally figure that one out.
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #5  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

I agree with the problem most likely being fuel related.I would also look for signs of water in the fuel.I reccomend checking all the simple things first.If the float in the carb has sunk, the engine would definitely flood.If the fuel system checked out okay, I would then check my ignition system, points, condensor, rotor button and distributor cap, and plug wires.
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #6  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

Had the same symptoms on my 62 Allis Chalmers D 12 gas tractor. Was caused by rust breaking loose inside gas tank and plugging up petcock. Would usually drain tank, remove petcock and rust flakes. Would work fine then until next time, then same thing. Should of took tank off, removed rust from inside and then coated tank, would of permenantly fixed it, but never got around to it. Rust in tank is pretty common problem on older gas tractors with steel tanks.
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #7  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

I agree that a fuel problem is the most likely culprit. Although, I'd think it may be sediment from the tank fouling the carb needle valve.

Another culprit on old engines is the ignition capacitor (or condenser--what ever you wish to call it). If you have a spare it is a quick, cheap, and easy check to swap it out for a test run.
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #8  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

Sounds classically like bad points... or even a marginal condensor. What 'decade' were the points last changed?

Could also be a marginal coil. is this thing converted to a higher operating voltage than oem? Is it using a dropping resistor an oem coil? or oem coiland no resistor? If either is the case.. get a new coil for the correct operating voltage.. try to do it without resistors.. if you are 12v.. napa sells an IC-14SB universal 12v coil.. no resistors needed.. for about 15$.

Now.. repalce ad regap those points.

For a test.. pull a plug wire and use a spare plug as a tester.. gap the plug at a huge 3/16 inch. this will tellyou what the spark is like under compression. If it's not blue snappy it's no good. orange or red sparks won't cut it.

Might as well change out secondary wires.. use metal core ones..no modern carbon core ones.. get a new cap and rotor as well. clean/repalce the primary wire to the coil, and the feedthru wire from the coil to the distribuitor.. check that key switch.. you want NO extra corrosion or resistance in the line.

After that.. check fuel flow. I had a zenith carb fight me like that and it ende dup being a clogged main jet... in addition to bad sparks.

clean/serive the air filter too.. an engine that can't breathe won't run good.

Soundguy
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #9  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

I think soundguy is on the right track. Have an allis chalmers which behaved the same way. We finally got it running right by changing points, condenser, rotor, cap and plugs and wires. It now runs like brand new. I chased fuel related thoughts for six months. I was ashames when it was so easy to fix, but also very pleased.
 
   / Can't keep the engine running... #10  
Re: Can\'t keep the engine running...

I think a company Pertronix makes a fairly inexpensive electronic ignition conversion to rid yourself of archaic and trouble prone points/condenser. Not sure if it fits your exact application---wouldnt hurt to check.
Rust in fuel as stated is likely---gasahol further collects water and rusts everything fuel related.
If you need an estimate on above work it is as follows:
Knock-eta-ping 49.99 /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Kerwhunk-eta 79.95 /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Grrrrr-coughhhhh 99.95
Klunketa- tappeta 149.50
If you watch 60.00 per hour
If you worked on it first---100.00 per hour
You' ll have to hold the phone up to running tractor for a conclusive diagnosis. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
 
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