Bury Polypipe ? Resistant to UV ?

[bcarwell]

I need a quick solution to getting water out about 1000 feet to a cattle trough until I have time to trench and lay pvc.

One thing I'm considering is a couple rolls of 1 inch black polypipe along the fenceline for a couple months until I can get at the trenching.

The questions are: 1) could I bury and thus re-use the polypipe in the trench if I wanted to instead of pvc and get some reasonable useful lifetime out of it (I'm in Central Texas where it usually only freezes down 12 inches a few times) and 2) how does polypipe hold up against the sun and UV (would there be any significant deterioration by being exposed to full sun in the pasture along the fence line for 3 months or so ?) Also could I hope to get it sold for maybe 50% of what I paid for it if I opt for the pvc as the permanent solution after 3 months or so ?

Thanks for any answers.

Bob

 

[texasjohn]

Would help to know if you are in the hill country or black land...could make a big difference in how you do this....if in black land, you can use tractor to bury poly line with a subsoiler approach. I've done it. If rock, tough ditch digging.

My recollection is that 1 inch pipe is significantly more expensive than smaller pipe.... put your money into a large tank, use smaller pipe, keep it pressurized and over time your large tank will fill up...you need large tank anyway..protection against freezing, well outages, etc... you need the reserve, IMHO. I've been down some of these thought trails.

Yes, poly pipe WILL last just fine when buried(5 plus years). Be prepared to do an occasional repair at an inconvenient time. This would be my answer/solution. Problem with poly pipe is sharp rocks can punch a hole, mice will chew into it on occasion, hogs can root it up to get to water, ground shrink/swell (Houston black clay) cracks can break the pipe (same true of PVC), tree roots can break it.

No problem exposing poly to sun for several months... water will get HOT!
Will break when frozen.... don't make that mistake... also, becomes brittle when real cold, so, best you resolve problem before winter....and, in my experience, things take longer to fix than I think they will. Your experience may vary

Doubt you could sell for much after you've used it for a while... maybe 20% of original cost on Craig's list.

 

[hawkeye08]

We used black poly for some of our lines (pump to outbuilding to house,etc). If you are thinking about using it long term, consider the connections all make the flow smaller (connector fits inside pipe). PVC fittings are on outside of pipe, flow is not restricted much. When running that distance, you might also consider having the first few hundred feet larger diameter to help with the flow. I used a 1 bottom plow to open a trench for temp plumbing. Make sure no gravel or rocks get in with the pipe if you bury poly.

 

[mjncad]

I just laid 100' of 3/4" PVC pipe in a trench for irrigation purposes. I was going to go with the tried and true black poly pipe; but I went with PVC for the following reasons.

1. I like PVC better.

2. It has a higher pressure rating.

3. It's easier to work with when working alone. Wrestling with poly pipe is no fun with two or more people helping out; but is a royal PITA by yourself.

4. Most important to me...it was cheaper than the poly pipe. As I recall, 100' of black poly was about $18 at Home Despot. This didn't include fittings and clamps. 100' of SCH40 PVC was $11.68 plus a $1.90 for a contractor pack of couplers.

A couple of months of UV won't hurt. I don't recommend it; but I've had PVC pipe exposed to sunlight for a few years without noticeable problems.

If you have a way to get it home, 20' sticks of PVC are available at supply houses; though I doubt the per foot cost will be as nices as Big Box Mart.

 

[Kays Supply]

I started out installing pumps. We used a poly that was 200# rated. It was almost bullet proof. It could be bought in 300' rolls, maybe even longer. It is pricey but again put it in and forget it. Poly is noted for splits, I never saw one in the 200#. A second option is PEX. It won't take the sun for long but it can freeze without breaking and it is warrantied for 40 years. Again probably triple the price of PVC but a one time install.

 

[bcarwell]

Thanks all for the great and quick advice. Exactly what I'm needin'
TexasJohn: unfortunately I am in Hill Country (Liberty Hill) which is the problem, e.g. I've got to rent a trencher and ditch dig, but in the meantime am getting tired of hauling water every 3-4 days, even though its only 4 yearling mini Herefords. Great tip on the tank !
So... if poly is more expensive, lousy resale value, hassle to work with, splits and freezes, sounds like PVC but a few more questions:
1. If PVC could I leave it exposed on the ground as the temporary fix through August/September while I'm digging the ditch without significant UV damage ?
2. If I add a tank, would 1/2 inch pipe be sufficient or should I go with 3/4 inch ? I suspect the incremental cost would not be that great compared to the benefit.
3. Is schedule 40 okay ?
4. What kind of specs would I need for a pump at my well house to get water at the other end (1000-1500 feet) at a nominal 30-40 psi for some drip irrigation and up in the tank ?

Thanks again, Bob

 

[daveshoot]

1" is too small for runs of a 1000 feet- you would have terrific pressure loss and be running at high velocities at any reasonable flow.

You need to know the flow in GPM at your source, then you can plug it into this calculator: PVC Pipe Pressure Loss Calculator. See if what's left will match your long term goals for irrigation, etc., besides filling the trough.

If you have to trench anyway, I would go 1.5" Sch. 40. Use purple primer before the blue glue.

 

[texasjohn]

Bob, all replies are relevant to your situation.

I dunno how you are going to run a ditch in Liberty Hill of that length....will require renting one of these trenchers that has teeth and looks like a 7 foot circular saw blade, IMHO. Be sure and have all your pipe ready, run the ditch, insert the pipe almost instantly...no more than a day or two delay....I've had too many experiences where a ditch fills in while other things get in the way of me completing the job

If using PVC, I'd be guided by incremental cost to determine size... buy in bulk, beware that cost of couplings adds up, using bell housings on end of pipe stick is best approach. See if you can get a contractor's price from Wally World ...I've dickered with them before, taken entire list of materials and gotten a price reduction for entire materials for the task. Using 20 ft sticks is good... fewer connections, faster assembly. I would use nothing but schedule 40 PVC. Yes, it will stand up just fine on the surface... but you may have to cut some fittings and redo if you use for temporary, then bury.

Yep, determine the flow rate you need for now and future plans.... a pipe larger than you need is good. For the animal units you are talking about, almost any reasonable size will work.... 4 animals will require about 25 gallons per day... 100 gallons total... so a flow rate of about 4 gallons per hour is all you need to keep your trough full IF this is the only water you need at the other end.

 

[eepete]

As Kays Supply touched on, the black PE comes in a number of different pressure ratings which translate to the thickness of the pipe.

I ran a 800 foot 2 inch 200# pipe for my water line to the house. The pipe wall is about .25 inches thick! I prepped the trench by getting it as smooth as I could, then hand laying in a layer of pea gravel, the pipe, then covering with pea gravel before filling the trench back in. BTW, the 2" was because the has was on a municipal supply and I had a fire sprinkler system so I wanted low pressure drop at a 20 GPM flow.

The box stores have limited selection of sizes, pressures, and lengths. I got mine from a plumbing supply house. I bought all the pipe for the house at once and paid for delivery so I could get other piping in 20 foot lengths. On the plus side, they carry only 160 PSI (around here) which is fine for most water uses. The plumbing supply house can probably get longer lengths of pipe though.

The pressures for black PE are 60, 100, 160, and 200 PSI (there may be more). The 60 is only good for seasonal farm buried irrigation beds. I used a bunch of the 100 for conduit for low voltage from the house (driveway sensor, satellite dish, telephone line). I got it in 300 foot rolls so each run had zero splices in it. The 160 is what is typically used for water. If I were doing it again, I'd use the 160 instead of the 100 for the low voltage because the 100 can crimp very easily. And finally the 200 seems to be used when a thicker wall is needed.

Depth is determined by local frost and critters. I have my low voltage almost 4 feet deep due to groundhogs in the area. My main telco line and low voltage run from the road (including driveway sensors) is down five feet deep. The water line is then down two feet deep and comes up to 18 inches for the splices every 200 feet.

Don't try to unroll a 200# pipe when it's cold, even with a tractor. You'll just hurt yourself. Don't ask :confused2:. Wait for it to be above 70 degrees.

A local farmer uses 1.5 inch 160 psi black PE for his sprinkler systems that are laid out on the ground. He stores the pipe out in the open, they have lasted year but the pressure probably doesn't go over 60 psi or so. I have a lot of the 100 PSI pipe exposed now where it comes up into pedestals. for 3 years, no real wear and tear, I do plan to spray paint them this winter (now that the surface has a little bit of texture to it due to oxidation and sunlight) so that the paint can wear down not the pipe.

Pex gets brittle very quickly with UV. A month of exposure is too much IMHO. If you go pex, lay it, protect it, and cover it in the same week.

Pea gravel bed is a little more money and work, but it sure is nice. If you have to dig it up, you'll know when you're close. Also, don't forget to put a tape about 1' down in the ground to warn or help anyone digging around you pipe in the future.

All the other posts are great information :thumbsup:.

Pete

 

[mjncad]

So... if poly is more expensive, lousy resale value, hassle to work with, splits and freezes, sounds like PVC but a few more questions:
1. If PVC could I leave it exposed on the ground as the temporary fix through August/September while I'm digging the ditch without significant UV damage ?

Yes.

2. If I add a tank, would 1/2 inch pipe be sufficient or should I go with 3/4 inch ? I suspect the incremental cost would not be that great compared to the benefit.

Neither is big enough for your needs and other posters are giving you good advice about upsizing.

3. Is schedule 40 okay ?

Yes.

4. What kind of specs would I need for a pump at my well house to get water at the other end (1000-1500 feet) at a nominal 30-40 psi for some drip irrigation and up in the tank ?

Is the land flat where you want to put the pipe, or will you be pumping uphill? That will affect your pump size too.

Thanks again, Bob

I ran a 800 foot 2 inch 200# pipe for my water line to the house. The pipe wall is about .25 inches thick! I prepped the trench by getting it as smooth as I could, then hand laying in a layer of pea gravel, the pipe, then covering with pea gravel before filling the trench back in. BTW, the 2" was because the has was on a municipal supply and I had a fire sprinkler system so I wanted low pressure drop at a 20 GPM flow.

I hate working with 1"-100PSI PE pipe, even if it's been softened by 90-degree temps. I can't imagine working with the stuff you used, let alone for 800-feet! The pea gravel is a good thing and I do that too.

Pea gravel bed is a little more money and work, but it sure is nice. If you have to dig it up, you'll know when you're close. Also, don't forget to put a tape about 1' down in the ground to warn or help anyone digging around you pipe in the future.

Detectable warning tape comes in 2" and 6" widths with different colors and wording for each service. I do that too. From personal experience, a pea gravel or "squeegee" (1/4") pea gravel makes repairs a lot easier. Plus it gives the pipe a little wiggle room to compensate for normal earth movement.

All the other posts are great information :thumbsup:.

Pete

The following are some pictures of my recent trenching and pipe laying efforts.

The first picture shows a freshly dug trench, which I always dig too deep in spite of my best efforts not to. The second photo shows native dirt backfilled into a trench and brought to a consistent 24" depth below grade. The third photo shows a weed fabric (who knows how long it will last) lined trench with 3" high chairs placed every 5' to gauge the pea gravel depth. The fourth photo shows the 3" pea gravel bed, conduit and pipe (Yes, I know I'm bad for co-locating water and electricity in the same ditch; but face it stormwater gets in conduit all the time. Yes, I know SCH80 pipe is called for under drives; but I'm not concerned as this is a residential driveway.) Additional 5" high chairs provide a minimum of 3" of pea gravel cover over the pipes. The fifth photo shows the final layer of pea gravel. The sixth photo shows the fabric covering the pea gravel. The seventh photo shows the first 8" lift of compacted native soil backfill and detectable marker tape. I don't have the photos downloaded from the camera yet; but the trench is backfilled with the final 8" lift and is compacted. There will be 4" of crushed concrete driveway going over the trench too.