Branson 2910i, starts rough

[SnowRidge]

I would think that it should not be an issue at zero degrees.
Have you measured the actual voltage UNDER LOAD at the glow plug bar connection?

And how would you have him do that? Modern diesels use pulsed glow plugs, unlike older engines which had continuously fed plugs in series with an indicator coil. To measure pulsing DC voltage accurately, you need an oscilloscope. I doubt too many people here have one of those.

Since so many people with the 2910i models are having the identical starting problem, unlike 3510 and 3520 owners, and Branson itself says rough starting is normal, a design problem is indicated. Absent a fix from the factory, running a block heater seems like the best option, as long as power is available.

 

[Zork]

And how would you have him do that? Modern diesels use pulsed glow plugs, unlike older engines which had continuously fed plugs in series with an indicator coil. To measure pulsing DC voltage accurately, you need an oscilloscope I doubt too many people here have one of those.

Since so many people with the 2910i models are having the identical starting problem, unlike 3510 and 3520 owners, and Branson itself says rough starting is normal, a design problem is indicated. Absent a fix from the factory, running a block heater seems like the best option, as long as power is available.

Wow, by your tone it seems to me you are offended- I apologize, please forgive me. If the diesel has GP's with a bar strip connected to all of them with one feed, it isn't a series circuit. I believe this system is a timed relay system, and if you want to call the duration of "power on, power off"- pulsed, be my guest. My understanding of this system is the glow plugs can stay on anywhere from 7 to 30 seconds depending on temperature, it should not be hard to measure either voltage or amperage within that time frame. As far as measuring amperage of DC current, many auto parts stores sell a $29 inductive ammeter that slips over a wire (no piercing required) that can be used very effectively for diagnosing electrical problems within 0-20 and 0-300 amperes, so I don't think you need an oscilloscope after all, as awhole.
Has any competant mechanic checked the advance fuel volume/pressure when it is cold?
I once overheard a service manager tell a customer that the noise they heard from their engine was "normal" for that year production. The truth was, it was piston slap that had not been noted and corrected at the factory and got out to the market- it sure was normal for that run.

 

[kinglberrywork]

Is it possible that this starting issue is due to the 3510 having a larger cylinder size which would result in more fuel being delivered to this cylinder which could make it more capable of creating a combustion at a lower temperature. I assume that basically there is only one real difference between these tractors and that is block/head design to allow larger pistons.

 

[SnowRidge]

Is it possible that this starting issue is due to the 3510 having a larger cylinder size which would result in more fuel being delivered to this cylinder which could make it more capable of creating a combustion at a lower temperature. I assume that basically there is only one real difference between these tractors and that is block/head design to allow larger pistons.

I understand that the 2910i has a different engine than the 3510/20, but I could be wrong.

 

[SnowRidge]

Wow, by your tone it seems to me you are offended- I apologize, please forgive me. If the diesel has GP's with a bar strip connected to all of them with one feed, it isn't a series circuit. I believe this system is a timed relay system, and if you want to call the duration of "power on, power off"- pulsed, be my guest. My understanding of this system is the glow plugs can stay on anywhere from 7 to 30 seconds depending on temperature, it should not be hard to measure either voltage or amperage within that time frame. As far as measuring amperage of DC current, many auto parts stores sell a $29 inductive ammeter that slips over a wire (no piercing required) that can be used very effectively for diagnosing electrical problems within 0-20 and 0-300 amperes, so I don't think you need an oscilloscope after all, as awhole.
Has any competant mechanic checked the advance fuel volume/pressure when it is cold?
I once overheard a service manager tell a customer that the noise they heard from their engine was "normal" for that year production. The truth was, it was piston slap that had not been noted and corrected at the factory and got out to the market- it sure was normal for that run.

Please read the OP's original post. He already stated that he put a clamp on ammeter on his machine. Pulsed means just that. The current is turned on and off rapidly. It does not stay on continuously for the duration of the preheating event. That is why you hear a relay clicking continuously until the engine is ready be started.

The glow plugs are fed in parallel, not series.

 

[kinglberrywork]

I understand that the 2910i has a different engine than the 3510/20, but I could be wrong.

They do have different engines, but those engines are designed to fit into the same frame for the 10 series so their respective wiring, layout, piping/tubing should be essentially the same. The engines for the 20 series would be an altogether different engine although probably similiarly designed but would be based around a different frame size so there would be mitigating factors to consider there as well, plus that frame size starts with a 38 hp engine with and approximate 2L displacement.

The 2910 and 3510 difference should only be the displacement difference which is 280cc, much like the difference between a Chevy 302 and the 350 from the same year of production.

The question I was posing was that would this difference in displacement, which equates to roughly 93cc's per cylinder, be such that due to the increase in amount of fuel injected into the 3510 cylinders as opposed to the 2910 cylinders be enough to promote combustion more effectively at lower temperatures thereby allowing smoother starts. Or could the 3510 simply have a higher compression ratio thereby allowing the combustion to occur.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I checked out my tractor this weekend and it does in fact have the black glowplug box on the firewall and the harness is connected to it. Since I have only had this tractor a short while, and it has less than 15hours on it, my dealer figures it will get easier to start once it is broken it??
I also checked and low and behold the block heater is installed in there and tie wrapped in place. Right now unless I move the tractor into my garage at the house and plug it in always, I will have to use a generator to warm it up in the back machine shed. I really would prefer to not put it in the garage as it is full enough of stuff at the moment!

Cheers,
Dale

 

[Reg]

I am not at all sure of how this factors into the argument about engine differences, but there have been Yanmar, Mitsubishi and Cummins based engines in various models.
It could be that there is more than a simple displacement difference between the 2910 and 3510, e.g. they could be from different base engine designs.

 

[Reg]

For no GOOD reason, other than that I could afford it and had some time to spare, I decided to install a lower radiator hose heater on my 42 HP Kukje/(Cummins design base) Branson/Century tractor.
It starts just fine even when VERY cold, but for about $35 plus tax....
and the fact that I can remember temperatures 20F lower than I have used the tractor at... why not ?

Anyway, PepBoys is quite a way from me, AutoZone doesn't carry them locally and NAPA is just down the street, so it cost about $5 more there.
It is a 400W Katz heater in a NAPA/Belden box and that tractor has a 1 inch I.D. lower hose.
The lower hose has a nearly 7 inch run that is straight and nearly vertical, so no problem with siting it.

I did read the instructions, which said to cut 1 inch out of the hose.
I decided that I knew better (as always) so first put the two hose clamps around the hose before removing it, before even draining the radiator.
A couple of reasons for this;
a) To ensure that I could cut the hose "square across" when ready.
b) To check that the location wouldn't cause any rubbing of heater, hose clamps, cable, or anything else against the radiator shroud or any other parts of the tractor.

Now I MUST REMEMBER that when I cut the hose I must cut on the side of the hose clamps that is BETWEEN the hose clamps - BOTH cuts.

Rewind;
Start by raising the hood & removing the right side panel.
Fast forward; to where I left off.

After a few adjustments of the hose clamps, each time holding the heater up beside the radiator hose and imagining the heater between the two hose clamps, it was time to drain the radiator.
It took a couple of minutes to follow a small hose running from the right bottom outside edge of the radiator forwards to a drain plug.
This is quite elaborate, nicely recessed and guarded against getting sheared off - a neat plastic plug. There is PLENTY of room under it for a 5 gallon bucket, I probably got less than two gallons out and of course it flowed a lot faster as soon as I took the pressure cap off the radiator.
A final snugging up of the hose clamps to make sure they were "square" and wouldn't move when I took the hose off. Another check of the spacing, which turned out to be just about 2 inches. Removed hose and cut it with confidence (& a utility knife) this was NOT reinforced hose and I was pleased to be able to use the metal edges of the hose clamps as guides to get it straight. Yes, I had allowed for moving the clamps out a bit, though I forgot to mention that earlier.
Not much to it from here, just shoved everything together and put hose clamps back, made sure to twist everything back to its original alignment.
Shut the rad drain, refilled and did a minor re-mount of the overflow bottle after I took it out to accept the fluid that wouldn't go in the rad. It will take a couple of uses to "burp" the top inch or so of air out the rad.

OK, I'm not used to plugging the tractor in, so will need a new habit.
More importantly I will need to REMEMBER that there is a 110 Volt LIVE power cord attached to the tractor.
I have routed the cord THROUGH the steering wheel, which might sound crazy, but hopefully I will notice it when I use the tractor the next time and it will remind me to unplug it before driving away.

One final thing; I am always cautious of metal to metal contact when it isn't by design.
There was a CHANCE that the metal body of the heater might rub against the edge of the radiator shroud.
To solve this (imagined) problem I slit the 2 inch length of hose that I had cut out and slipped it around the body of the heater.
It is the perfect length for this and when opened up wraps around and encases the heater body perfectly - adds a bit of thermal insulation too.

I will probably do some hose feeling before starting up, at a guess I will plug in for an hour before using the tractor, but only if temps are below 20F.

 

[gsgator]

There is a post titled "Branson 2910 Warranty Work" that talks a little about the problem I had with mine. There is a check valve somewhere in the fuel system and mine was installed on the wrong line causing a lot of smoke and limited power. One of the other things it did was start hard. Since they corrected it, it helped tremendously with the power, cut the smoke, and starts easier. I didn't know if you got yours figured out yet.