Brand LV22 Joystick: Anyone successfully change from A to A1

[LD1]

Got a brand joystick valve, having the same issues GPinthemitten had in this thread http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/344932-loader-valve-curl-function-diagnosis-9.html

Got this valve to install on dads IH444 and 2000 loader. It seams either the directions are just plain wrong or inclompete in switching from A to A1 configuration. Here is the complete PDF and where I got the following instructions and pictures from https://www.surpluscenter.com/_MoreSpecs/i9-7401.pdf

Here is what they show:


Which clearly shows that you can have A configuration with hoses coming out the left, or A1 with hoses coming out the right. We need to mount in A1 configuration.

So follow the directions and picture as follows:


The result is NOT what A1 illustrates....in a way.

If you look at the first picture, notice that they are changing the hoses. IE: the hoses labeled for boom lift have now switched to the OTHER spool. In the "A" configuration, the bucket hoses were hook on the side of the valve nearest the inlet and PRV, in the A1 config, these are now the boom hoses?? (Mentally rotate the left image in your head and then compare to the image on the right....notice the hose locations changed)



Its not so simple just to swap hoses, since one spool has a detent-float and the other spool has regen. These are a function of the spool, NOT the joystick. So no matter how the joystick is attached, the spool with float HAS to be boom, and the one with regen HAS to be bucket dump. So something is wrong here.

SO, we established that we CANNOT simply swap hoses as directions show, since that would put float detent on the dump circuit, and regen on boom lower.

So looking at it as hooked up in A1 config as per drawing, if we orient the valve with the hoses coming out of the TOP, that puts the detent for float and boom raise in the correct location, But now the curl and regen are backwards. With hoses coming out the top, pulling the valve to the left is now regen, which should be curl.

One of the reasons I suspected perhaps A1 config would be just 90 degrees off of "A" config instead of a full 180 degree swap is because of this line in the instructions:



So what is the rod end retainer plate and corresponding flat?


If I were to assemble as per the drawing, and orient that to the left, that would put the hoses facing the front, NOT to the right as pictured in the very first picture?

It would seam that there is no possible way to orient this valve other than A configuration unless you want to relearn how to use a joystick. Cause in A1, nothing seems to make it work.

Now to the part about directions being wrong and possibly "incomplete". Is it possible to swap the two spools? I know its alot of work, but in A1 config and hoses out the right side as the illustration shows, moving the joystick fore and aft operates the spool that has regen, and moving it left to right operates the spool with the float detent. If the casting is the same, and the spool assembly is the only differences, perhaps they need swapped.

Both float and regen are accomplished by pressing IN the respective spool. So forward is currently regen and right is currently float. Swapping spools would swap those functions and be correct, if thats possible.

Hope I didnt lose anyone. These seem to be pretty popular valves. As the tile asks, anyone change from A to A1 successfully? Or does everyone just mount in A config? If I can get A1 to work, its a whole lot simpler given where the IN, out, and PB need to hook to the tractor at, and easier to mount on the bracket thats already welded on there.

 

[Leejohn]

LD1 I have been interested in this thread from the start. What I just did was to print out the PDF file. I did not read all the text yet, but I took the A and A1 drawings looked them over real good.The drawings seem to be right to me, but hard to follow. Try just looking at the drawings first and see if that helps. I don't think any hoses have to be changed at all. In configuration A regen spool is on the bottom and when it is flipped to A1 regen just goes to top, the hoses can not be changed. It's only the handle being changed. When I look at the drawings real close I am picking up how it works.

 

[LD1]

Look them over again. Specifically the ones I drew on.

Look at the third picture I posted of the a and a1 config side by side. Note where the pressure adjust is in relation to the ports. Now note how they label the ports. They switch them.

One of the spools is a regen, the other is a tandem spool with float. Simply swapping hoses to match joystick direction as they show don't work.

 

[LD1]

If you look at the PDF pic for "a" configuration, moving the joystick inline with the valve body towards the in and out ports as if you were raising and lowering, that actuates what they call the second spool. (First spool being the one next to the inlet).

Going to A1 config, and moving the joystick the same way, inline with the valve body, you are now actuating spool 1.

If you look at the pic that shows the a and a1 valve functions side by side, you see that they simply adjust the work ports to compensate.

That would be all well and fine if this were not a regen valve. Regen is a special spool that allows both ports to pressurize. So its not a matter of simply swapping the ports.

The detent is indeed just in the can on the end of the valve.

So if this were a NON regen valve, and just had a pair of tandem spools with one having a 4th position float, I think I would be fine just swapping ports + swapping the detent under the can. But regen makes that a no go.

The directions IMO are plane wrong. It is impossible to swap a LV22rfstkab to a LV22tkrfsa1b as the directions imply.

There is more info on brands website. Basically the part number breaks down as follows:

Lv22 is the valve.
Rfs is the first spool. R is for regen, fs is 4th position spring return
TK is second spool. T for Tandem and K for float
A is mounting position

Swapping to a LV22tkrfsa1b implies that the SECOND spool needs to be the regen spool and not the first.

 

[Leejohn]

Yes #3 picture can't be right. Now the last two pictures are for flipping the valve 180 degs. not 90 degs. I see what you mean if the valve is only flipped 90 degs, that would change the boom to side to side movement. So when the hoses get changed it puts the boom into regen. Back to the drawing board.

PS I'm talking about the last 2 pictures in the pdf file.

 

[LD1]

Thought I would add this: http://www.brand-hyd.com/install/converting_lv-mb_joystick_from_a_to_a1.pdf

Notice there is a 3rd page of instructions. And a 5-year newer revision date compared to the link that surplus center and others provide.

Worth a read. Nice notations about Regen valve (R) not able to swap to a Tandem (T) bore.

And a nice chart telling what configs can be swapped to others.

There is NO listing where a RFSTK can be converted to a TKRFS. If a R and a T spool are used, there is no swapping spool action. And it seems the only conversion would be to go to an A2 configuration (hoses out the bottom) with the addition of a LV60 plate instead of a LV22.

So I think this statement is just plain WRONG:


And that page, and phrase is no where in the current "brand" literature that I could find.

 

[LD1]

Made some calls today.

I asked surplus center where page 3 of their instructions came from. The page that specifically says that the LV22RFSTKAB can be converted to LV22TKRFSA1B. they had no idea. I kinda wanted to know where that page of info came from before I called Brand directly.

So surplus didnt know. I called brand anyway. Specifically asked them if the valve can be converted. The answer is NO. The valve CANNOT be converted It can ONLY be used in A config as it comes. OR, you can buy the LV60 retainer plate and mount in the A2 config which has the plate on top and hoses coming out the bottom. Its about a $10 part. Thats it, no other way.

If you want A1 config, you need to order the valve with the TK before RFS. This puts the spools in different bores. Which are NOT swappable as the bores are machined differently. The LV60 plate would make the TKRFS become an A3 configuration.

So the info on surplus centers website, wherever it came from, is just plain wrong. Page 3 is bad information. And after the two pages of detailed disassembly of A config and re-assembly of A1 configuration, there is a page missing that explains all of this, and even a chart that shows what configurations can be changed into something else. Page 3 here has the chart http://www.brand-hyd.com/install/Converting_LV-MB_Joystick_from_A_to_A1.pdf