Bought me a Dell!

hillslider · Jun 14, 2005

And to think I was just excited to get my new Dell system that I made this post. It was the first time I cruised the TBN on the 17 digital flat panel and I wanted to see how it looked. I did not think this would turn into an apple vs dell. My Dell system is better than any other computer on this planet. My tractor is also the best on the planet. It should be, I chose them and I choose only the best!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

rswyan · Jun 14, 2005

hillslider,

My apologies for apparently hijacking the thread and diverting it into a Mac/PC thing. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Glad to hear you like your new system. My several year old CRT displays are getting a little tired - fuzzy, losing contrast - look forward to getting an LCD at some point to give my eyes a rest.

( My Dell system is better than any other computer on this planet. My tractor is also the best on the planet. It should be, I chose them and I choose only the best!!!!! )
Well there ya go, there ya have it. It truely is an individual thing - like footwear - I might like Converse, but I'm sure there are many who like Nike. Nothing wrong with either if it gets the job done.

gsxr1100 · Jun 14, 2005

First off before you think I am going nuts, which I am not, you are saying the same thing the guy at work has been saying for over 11 years. It is like to own a Mac must be in a “group” or something. It is like the world is all wrong and Pc are not up to speed. If that we true I would by using a Mac at home, or Mac at work, not needed other software platforms. Which I think Windows “bailed” out Mac a few years ago.

The guy who purchased it bought it since he does animation with it. It has nothing to do with him stating “I have the blah blah”. It was also a few years ago when he purchased one. Are they cheaper now sure, and I remember a few months ago when he needed it fixed (again). The bill was more then what I could build a pc for!

No one in my eng dept likes Mac and we have zero Mac’s at work. That is none, zero. They looked into it and it was a no go by our IT dept; which I currently know the manager (and going golfing with in 2 days). He ones a Mac and also likes Unix (which is gone by waste side too).

Are Mac’s good sure. I even used one years ago in school, and well, I hated it (along with other kids). Are they the mainstream, nope. Will they ever be, nope. They have been around for years, many years at that and they still are behind PC’s. We have over 180K people for the corporation I work for and we will never have mac’s and we do lots of 3d, animation too. I do not condone Dell’s either but we have the most ram, most Ghz Dell sells, the top of the line graphics cards, dvd this and that. No Mac here.

Example the Mac G5 has 512 cache, 256 DDR SDRAM, 8X super drive, 3 slots,internal modem, 64MB DDR vid mem, 1.8 GHz, for $1,499! Are they nuts! Upgrade to 512 Ram and you are at $1,545

I can buy a dell for about $400 cheaper with the 95% of the performance. Nevermind building one myself for about $800.

Again they are nice but try to fix one cheaply like the rest of the world; you will find yourself spending more in the long run. I upgrade my pc every 2 years. Do I need 3.x gHZ pc, 1gb DDR2 SDRAM, 19 LCD or 80 GB space no. But for the price to upgrade it is cheap, big time!

Well the world has chosen the norm, and by the sales through the years and the standard it is not Mac my friend.

gsxr1100 · Jun 14, 2005

you got a good PC and a good tractor..so there

I wonder if they use a mac or dell to design it! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

....lets not go there.... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hillslider · Jun 14, 2005

I was a bit surprised when I rec. My Dell. The box with the LCD flat panel and the box with the free printer said made in China!!!! My Kubata says made in Japan. Would a Japanese company use Chinese products?????? Are Apples made in the USA? Oh, by the way I wear Doc Martin work boots. Only the best for this redneck!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Jagmandave · Jun 14, 2005

Well, Dell doesn't make any part of their computers, they assemble them from components they buy from other manufacturers, wherever they can get the best deal (I don't know about the best quality - I mean really, I don't know. Could be the best stuff they can buy, could be the best stuff they can buy for a price)
They have copied Toyota's production methods and use a lot of automation in their plants, so their overhead to build is lower than pretty much anyone else's, and their turnaround is lightning quick. They liken their production to milions of one offs, or a million runs of "one". But this means the stuff inside could come from anywhere in the world............
Doesn't make them a bad computer, we have a number of them at work and haven't really had any problems with them, other than hackers - and of course that's not exactly their fault. I think............ /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

rswyan · Jun 15, 2005

gsxr1100,

I don't think you are going nuts - I think you are like me and a lot of other people who frequent this board, and people generally - you have an opinion. Of course, I do as well. My problem comes about when people start pushing their opinions and stating them as actual fact (something I myself may have been guilty of a time or two /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif), when in fact they are nothing more than opinion. I also have problem with broad, vague generalities, since they are inherently inaccurate.

I apparently misunderstood your previous post about the guy at your work who likes macs. He's not using one at work, the company ain't paying for it, and it's personal hobby thing, apparently. If he's upgrading I'd imagine he's doing it on his own determinisim.

( It is like to own a Mac must be in a “group” or something. It is like the world is all wrong and Pc are not up to speed. )
I suppose for some it is - just like the opposite is for some PC owners.

( Which I think Windows “bailed” out Mac a few years ago. )
Microsoft iinvested a significant amount of money in Apple a few years back - probably largely as a way to avoid further action by the Department of Justice (they were found to be a monopoly by a Federal Court you know) Apple for quite some time has been in a pretty good position financially - very low amount of debt, lots of good investments, and a lot of cash. Check their SEC filings and financials. The "bailing out" aspect probably comes from the doom and gloom "PC" press which has been predicting Apple's imminent demise now for, oh, about 15 or so years. Just wait a few minutes .... I'm sure there will be a shutdown announcement any second .....

( Are they cheaper now sure, and I remember a few months ago when he needed it fixed (again). The bill was more then what I could build a pc for! )
No real specifics there in your post so I can't comment on the repair but I can tell you that the price point on Apple's top of the line units have ranged from $1500 to $3500 (often less on the high end) for probably the last 5 or 6 years, at least. Is that a premium price ? Well maybe - depends on what specifically you are comparing it to.

( No one in my eng dept likes Mac and we have zero Mac’s at work. That is none, zero. They looked into it and it was a no go by our IT dept; which I currently know the manager (and going golfing with in 2 days). He ones a Mac and also likes Unix (which is gone by waste side too). )
I'm not really sure what the point is that you are trying to make with this - or how it relates to the original point I was addressing - the statement that Macs are virtually non-upgradable.

While it is true that the original Mac was designed to be a "closed box", that idea went away with the intro of the Mac II in 1987. It was reintroduced with the intro of the iMac in 1998, although these units were more upgradable than the original Mac. Evidently some portion of the market has an interest in this type of system, given Apple's sales numbers on the product. Interestingly the PC manufacturers response was of course to attempt to copy it, which is just good business. Personally I think it's a good thing when a company responds to market demands.

( Are they the mainstream, nope. Will they ever be, nope. )
That is not a claim that I made. BMW's aren't mainstream either - but that doesn't take away anything from them whatsoever in my book. I really don't know what the point of this comment was - other than to somehow minimize Apple and the Mac.

( They have been around for years, many years at that and they still are behind PC’s )
Behind ? In what way are they behind - in terms of sales numbers ? Yeah, so what ? That doesn't minimize the product, or it's technology, in the least. McDonald's serves alot of fast food ..... it doesn't mean I care to eat there (well, except for the Sausage McMuffin with cheese)

( We have over 180K people for the corporation I work for and we will never have mac’s and we do lots of 3d, animation too. I do not condone Dell’s either but we have the most ram, most Ghz Dell sells, the top of the line graphics cards, dvd this and that. No Mac here. )
Well, good. Far be it from me to suggest that you, or whoever you work for, should have to adopt a particular platform. Find whatever works best for you and use it.

( Example the Mac G5 has 512 cache, 256 DDR SDRAM, 8X super drive, 3 slots,internal modem, 64MB DDR vid mem, 1.8 GHz, for $1,499! Are they nuts! Upgrade to 512 Ram and you are at $1,545 I can buy a dell for about $400 cheaper with the 95% of the performance. Nevermind building one myself for about $800. )
Yeah - if you are just comparing the cost of hardware it's possible in many cases to buy similar hardware for less $. But you won't be able to run the Mac OS on it either. Then the question becomes what is it worth to be able to do that ? For you, it's apparently not worth a whole lot. For others it just might be worth something.

( Again they are nice but try to fix one cheaply like the rest of the world; you will find yourself spending more in the long run. )
I don't think that's really true - by and large they use standardized components for many things (ram, hard drives, optical drives, video cards, etc., etc.) Of course it depends on what you are trying to fix - and whether you do it yourself or take it someone to fix. A couple of years ago the gigabit port on my G4/450 was blown out by a surge (lightning strike) that came in through power supply of the network switch and went out over the network. I was able to replace the logic board with a brand new service part for $99 .... which I would say is pretty cheap (I think I paid at least twice that for my dual PIII logic when I built it)

( I upgrade my pc every 2 years. Do I need 3.x gHZ pc, 1gb DDR2 SDRAM, 19 LCD or 80 GB space no. But for the price to upgrade it is cheap, big time! )
So let me understand the logic here. You upgrade the PC every two years because it's cheap to do so, even though you don't need to. Someone else buys a Mac for a little more (even say twice as much) and keeps it for four or five or more years ..... who has the bigger outlay over the long haul ?

( Well the world has chosen the norm, and by the sales through the years and the standard it is not Mac my friend. )
I never said the mac was "the norm" or the "standard" - although you have to admit that Apple has come up with some pretty cool technology, much of which has been ripped off .... oops I mean "adopted" by the PC world - here's a partial list:

1977 - The Apple II was the first mass produced COLOR
computer.

1979 - VisiCalc, the first spreadsheet program, released for the Apple
II

1983 - Lisa (forerunner to Macintosh), first personal computer with a
Graphic User Interface

1984 - Macintosh released. First personal computer with dynamic memory allocation, API programming support (the Toolbox), a graphics API (QuickDraw), a global clipboard, Undo feature, 3.5" floppy disk

1985 - First personal computer with built-in networking (LocalTalk).
Also, the LaserWriter establishes the Mac as the standard for desktop
publishing, revolutionizing the print and publishing industry

1986 - First personal computer with built-in SCSI (Mac Plus)

1987 - Plug-and-play expansion (Nubus in Mac II)

1987 - HyperCard introduces visual programming; MultiFinder brings
multitasking (albeit not preemptive) to the Mac

1988 - Plug and play SCSI CD-ROM

1988 - The first SuperDrive (floppy) is introduced. Read/writes to Mac, DOS, OS/2, and ProDOS floppies

1989 - 32-bit QuickDraw allows Macs to display photo-quality,
true-color images

1991 -The first plug-and-play Ethernet networking cards

1991 - Apple petitions the FCC to allow personal computers to exchange
information via wireless radio

1991 - QuickTime, the first standard for dynamic media

1992 - WorldScript, the first worldwide language support for an
operating system

1992 - The Duo (notebook) is introduced with the DuoDock, code named BOB - best of both worlds

1992 - QuickTime for Windows makes QuickTime the first cross-platform
dynamic media standard

1993 - ColorSync is the first color-matching technology bulit-in to an
operating system

1993 - First personal computers with built-in video digitizers and
speech recognition (Quadra and Performa 660AV and 840AV)

1993 - Newton Message Pad introduced - first handheld full featured
computer (forerunner of the PDA)

1993 - First unified telephony and email architecture for a personal
computer operating system (PowerTalk and PowerShare)

1993 - First personal computer with bulit-in TV and CD stereo system
(Macintosh TV)

1994 - Power Macs debut, become the leading RISC-based personal
computers

1994 - System 7.1 for Power Macs is the first operating system to use
emulation to run parts of itself, as well as legacy application
software (i.e. the backwards-support is done in software)

1994 - First 24-bit color digital camera under $1000 (QuickTake)

1994 - First next-generation typography engine (QuickDraw GX)

1994 - First panoramic virtual reality technology for personal
computers (QuickTime VR)

1995 - PowerBook 5300 was the first PowerPC notebook and the first to
include a sleep-swapable drive bay. Included IR receiver for wireless
networking

1997 - PowerBook 3400 - fastest portable computer in the world also
utilizes the 1MB IrDA Infra-red standard.

1997 - The 20th Anniversary Mac with integrated TV/Radio system, Bose
sound, S-Video input

1997 - Power Mac G3 utilizes the PPC 750 Processor co-designed by IBM
and Motorola, and was the first processor capable of using a "backside"
cache, which could communicate directly with the processor at extremely
high speeds

1998 - The iMac is introduced. Unique in its lack of floppy drive, the
iMac included a 4Mbps IrDA port, and an internal 56Kpbs modem, used two 12 Mbps Universal Serial Ports (USB) as its only means of external
expansion, and included a newly-designed USB keyboard and mouse.

Recent History - AirPort wireless 802.11b was brought to the mass
market, Gigabit ethernet standard on personal computers, FireWire 400
and 800, the second coming of the SuperDrive (CD-RW,DVD-R), iSight,
AirPort Extreme 802.11g and a host of innovative software products

The fact is, whether you care to acknowledge it or not, Apple has been responsible for developing, integrating, and bringing to market alot of technology and "standards" that you may now take for granted.

Whether the Mac is a "standard" or not is largely dependent on who is using it - it is certainly a standard for some. Is it the most widely used operating system ? Definitely not .... and I never said that it was.

And as far as "norms" go ..... well, whatever .... I'm an individual ..... I have no desire whatsoever to be "normal" or "fit in with the crowd" .... it's just not a motivating factor here, except to the extent that it facilitates my ability to communicate with others .... in other words a necessary evil.

rswyan · Jun 15, 2005

( Are Apples made in the USA? )
Last I knew some were assembled in the USA - although they recently shutdown the Elkgrove CA assembly plant and moved the ops somewhere else. They have or had multiple assembly plants in the US.

They operate similar to Dell in that they outsource some standardized components from various manufacturers, have others produce custom components of their own design (IBM produces the northbridge or system controller chip for the G5 in their Fishkill, NY plant), and then do they assembly in their own plants .... although this is not true for their entire product line - at least some of the notebooks are produced entirely overseas, manufactured to spec by a third party.

hillslider · Jun 15, 2005

So do you like the Apple line or what?

Jagmandave · Jun 15, 2005

So, if they're so good and innovative, why do they only have 5% of the market? This is not asked derisively, but as a legitimate question...........enquiring minds want to know!

Dargo · Jun 15, 2005

I can answer that. First is the price. It's just flat a fact that you pay more for a Mac than a PC. Secondly, Apple refused to allow other vendors the ability to make "clones", like IBM did. Your common desktop PC is basically an IBM clone. Apple choose not to go that way. Their strategy.

Personally, from owning a computer business for several years, I think that Apple makes a quality product. For many years it was common to go into a store such as Best Buy and see 15 isles full of software for a PC, and half of one isle for a Mac. That didn't help. And, as much as he likes them, you just can't upgrade the Macs like a PC. I, too, generally make a major upgrade to my computer system every 18 months or so. That costs me around $300 to $400 dollars and I stay with pretty well the "latest and greatest" system. Large corporations do much the same. One of my biggest customers was Bristol Myers. The one location by me had 2400 PCs. They either upgraded or replaced about 100 PCs each month. That kept them on a 2 year cycle of upgrading for an average cost of $400 to $500. As I stated before, you can't do that with a Mac. Therefore, their overall cost of operation and keeping up to date computers on their desks is much less than buying new Macs every 2 years. Also, a lot of proprietary software for these corporations is just now becoming available for Apple computers.

Also, as I said before, I still may one day buy an Apple computer. I'm just too cheap to pay a premium just to "have one". Apparently 95% of the computer buying population seems to feel the same way. Again, I have no bad comments about the computers or their operating system. It's a pure overall cost of ownership and operation that is prohibitive. I no longer own or operate a computer business, but I can still build systems in my sleep. All the talk and banter in the world will not change the facts. But, hey, you sure find some die hard Mac fans. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rswyan · Jun 15, 2005

hillsider,

Yeah - I do like 'em. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In fact, I like computers generally - even windows pcs.

My first experience with computers was on a Pick Systems mini-computer that my parents were attempting to computerize their business with. This was prior to the advent of personal computers. Although it was some fun to tinker with, it wasn't a workable solution - the primary problem being a lack of software tailored to their business, or competent personnel to program it. They sunk alot of money into what eventually was an unworkable solution.

After they failed to get that to work, I talked them into going with a proprietary, integrated system - hardware and software. It was made by a company called Triad Systems - they were a vertical market developer, for specific industries - in our case, the automotive aftermarket. They are now called Activant. It wasn't cheap - close to $500K - which I personally guaranteed. I oversaw the physical installation of that system in the three separate locations the busniess had at that time (the two satellite locations used "dumb" terminals that were tied back to the main location where the computer was, via dedicated phone lines) I oversaw getting all the inventory data entered into the computer system - this included 15,000 - 30,000 individual sku's per location, pricing (generally 4 prices per sku), and the last year of sales history for each sku, at each location. As well, I oversaw setting up the accounts recievable portion of the computer (around 1000 accounts), account payable (around 100 vendors) the ordering system, including product orders telecommunicated to vendors computers, point-of-sale invoicing, and was working on setting up the general ledger when I left the company. It took around a year with multiple people working on it, just to get the inventory data and sales history entered in. The year after that, we were able to reduce our inventory by 1/3 ($300K) ..... while still increasing our sales by 50% ($1,000,000)

My first exposure to the Mac was shortly after this, when we bought a Mac Plus and a Laserwriter to produce our own catalogs and flyers.

Mark4510 · Jun 15, 2005

I hate to admit it but in my misguided youth I worked for Apple and then after that for Intel. After years of experience between those two companies my take on this is pretty middle of the road. Both make good solutions but there are more economies of scale and competition in the PC market.

Real power and novice users buy solutions. Geeks buy whatever turns the propeller on their beanie.

That being how I see it, if I were buying a computer today, I would determine what I want to accomplish, order a Dell that fits my needs and not look back.

Mark

rswyan · Jun 15, 2005

Jagman,

That's a good question. Brent points out a couple of reasons - price being one, and cloning being the other.

There's a little more to the "standard" and cloning issue ..... specifically, with IBM producing a PC, having their history in the computer industry, and being willing (eventually - it didn't start like that immediately) to open the architecture and allowing cloning ........ people were looking for a standard" to glom onto ..... and the IBM PC became it ..... Apple was just this upstart company founded by a couple of kids (Jobs and Woz) IBM was the safe bet for corporate America. Over time, eventually a mindset develops - in the politics of the corporate world lots of folks just concentrate on being "safe" (the "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM")

Windows certainly wasn't the "standard" - shoot, it didn't even exist at that point. Bill Gates got lucky - although he certainly is a genius at business, regardless of his luck.

Attracting developers and software availability was also definitely an issue - not that there wasn't always plenty of software in most every category available for the Mac - it just that they didn't have as big a selection as the Windows world.

rswyan · Jun 15, 2005

( Secondly, Apple refused to allow other vendors the ability to make "clones", like IBM did. )
That's true initially - although they did allow for a short period after Jobs was gone. Too little too late, and it was bad move (only cut their margins, with no corresponding increase in marketshare), didn't play to their strengths.

( And, as much as he likes them, you just can't upgrade the Macs like a PC. )
I'm still trying to figure this one out Brent - maybe at some point you'll get a little more specific and enlighten us all.

Please to explain .... what this consists of, specifically. Faster processor ? New logic board ? More ram ? Bigger, faster hard drive ?

( As I stated before, you can't do that with a Mac. )
Well you can keep saying it - but that doesn't make it true. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

But you might get some to buy into it - afterall it is one of the oldest PR tricks in the book. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

( As I stated before, you can't do that with a Mac .... <snip> ..... All the talk and banter in the world will not change the facts. )
Is there some reason you are avoiding being specific ?

( But, hey, you sure find some die hard Mac fans. )
As well as PC fans too, apparently.

Dargo · Jun 15, 2005

( I'm still trying to figure this one out Brent - maybe at some point you'll get a little more specific and enlighten us all.

Please to explain .... what this consists of, specifically. Faster processor ? New logic board ? More ram ? Bigger, faster hard drive ? )

Holy cow man. I don't have the time nor desire to list the hundreds of vendors of motherboards, front side buses available, processors, over clocking devices, BIOS chip manufacturers, types of memory, 256 MB video cards available etc. etc. etc. etc. that is available to choose from to upgrade a PC for $300 or less. I take that back, there are literally thousands of makers of these items that gives the PC user a price and quality competitive market. That just doesn't exist for a Mac. Period. No other need for "specifics". Gees o Pete! I told you that I like Macs, they are reliable, the software issue is getting much better, but apparently that's not good enough. Nothing personal, but look to the other 95% of the computer market to explain the thousands of reasonable priced options available to upgrade a PC without spending much money as opposed to what you can do with a Mac. I give up. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I feel like I'm trying to explain why water is wet. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

gsxr1100 · Jun 15, 2005

I hear ya? LOL WHOA /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I can upgrade my pc many times over for a cheap price (as I have stated) and still be behind the 8-ball.....

I am telling ya, the owners make the great oil debate look like pre-school.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif..it is a joke for the people that do not get it...

AndyM · Jun 15, 2005

I am telling ya, the owners make the great oil debate look like pre-school.... ..it is a joke for the people that do not get it...

Our puny mortal brains cannot handle your concepts.

Until the rest of us catch up with the TBN Talosians in the 23rd century, we will continue to buy Fords, Rotella oil, and Apple computers. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Gotta go for tonight... I've got to refill my diesel at the Walmart. Saves me 5 cents a gallon!

hillslider · Jun 15, 2005

AhHHHH the Triad system. Used it for many hours. I got to play with this sytem when I worked for a small chain of parts stores about 17 yaers ago called OK Auto Parts in northern WI. I thought the set up was pretty cool and it sure saved a lot of time. It sure beat the card file system I saw in many small parts stores. I then moved into the NAPA world and they used IBM clones with a Unix system. They called the set up TAMS...Total Automotive Manegement System. This set up was even better. NAPA did a great job inventing a system for their jobber stores. I miss the NAPA world...managed several stores for 12 years and then went to work for the corporate guys running a company store. Pressure was high and every time you would have a poor month they wanted to play with the pay scale.....told them to pack it and left. Someday I would love to get back into the NAPA world and maybe own my own store.

rcrcomputing · Jun 16, 2005

Well, we gotta have at least one Dell anti-vote here. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
A good clone will hook up to it and pull it backwards. Very noticable differance in responsivness etc..

Time marches on... Used to be Packard bells were all in the shop, then was Gateways, then came the HP's and Compaq's, now lots of Dells.. They all make the rounds.

Interesting things come in the shop.
Dell sends little old ladies motherboards to install.
Sends wireless modules for laptops that have the slot inside but no antenna hook-ups. (This was new)

You have to watch them. They'll put 256meg ram in a new machine which blows your performance down even slower. Or a 5400rpm drive rather than a 7200rpm, or a drive with 1meg cache rather than an 8meg cache. And/or onboard video (That really slugs you down) These simple things add up to a poor performing machine.

Will you notice today? Maybe not, but as software evolves, you'll see the problem long before I do on a good clone. Of course, finding a good place to buy your clone from is a whole nuther ball game.. And that's the problem.

For the price, dell is probably a good deal. But not if you want a performance machine. A good 64 bit machine with a good 128-256 meg video card will flat smoke it. REALLY smoke it!