Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside

[liberty2701]

Here are some the logs I have been hauling out of the woods with my Tafjun 35.

 

[liberty2701]

Now that it has been det. that the high sulphur heating oil was the problem, do you think it has done anything to my tractor ( tiers 3). Other than the smoke on the cold start it always ran fine. I burned through 150 gals of the fuel all spring/summer until the cold came and the smoke started. I still have 150 gals in drums. Do you think i could use it in the warmer weather or discard it into the heating oil tank? It is also 40 cents less a gal than off road diesel.

 

[Coyote machine]

Now that it has been det. that the high sulphur heating oil was the problem, do you think it has done anything to my tractor ( tiers 3). Other than the smoke on the cold start it always ran fine. I burned through 150 gals of the fuel all spring/summer until the cold came and the smoke started. I still have 150 gals in drums. Do you think i could use it in the warmer weather or discard it into the heating oil tank? It is also 40 cents less a gal than off road diesel.

If you're asking if running the high sulfur diesel has done damage to your engine it's a roll of the dice at best from where any of us are seated. I doubt it has done any long term harm, keep in mind it was NOT designed to run on that fuel, and proved the point by it's cold running smoking.
You still have some puffs of smoke likely indicating unburned fuel bypassing the combustion chamber and passing through to the exhaust. Why run what you know is problematic? $0.40/gallon for 150 gallons, versus the cost of the tractor as an investment? Not if it were mine. Give it what it needs, and put the old fuel in your furnace. Life is short- move on and consider yourself lucky.:thumbsup:

 

[liberty2701]

If you're asking if running the high sulfur diesel has done damage to your engine it's a roll of the dice at best from where any of us are seated. I doubt it has done any long term harm, keep in mind it was NOT designed to run on that fuel, and proved the point by it's cold running smoking.
You still have some puffs of smoke likely indicating unburned fuel bypassing the combustion chamber and passing through to the exhaust. Why run what you know is problematic? $0.40/gallon for 150 gallons, versus the cost of the tractor as an investment? Not if it were mine. Give it what it needs, and put the old fuel in your furnace. Life is short- move on and consider yourself lucky.:thumbsup:

I agree. Thanks

 

[liberty2701]

Did a little rsearch into the heating oil. The only diff l have been told is the sulphur content. It is refined and filtered the same as Ulsd for impurities. If anything the higher sulphur will add more lubricity to the engine/ fuel system. I know my tractor is tier3, but where are the emission controls that this could cause problems with? I see nothing of any kind in my service manual. Looks like a regular diesel engine fuel system. Just trying to understand completely why it smoked more on a cold start. My feeling is the cetane is lower than ulsd. My reading on cetane is that this number directly affects how easily it ignites when cold. Kind of explains as to why it ran completely fine after the cold start.

 

[ritcheyvs]

My research says DF2 and HHO2 are very similar. BUT HHO is a generic term that may include HHO3, HHO4, Kerosene, etc. Furthermore, winter Diesel is DF2 that is blended with DF1 (aka Kerosene) or other (cheaper) additives to inhibit jelling. The term "jelling" is a bit misleading; what actually occurs is the formation of small crystalline waxy solids that can plug filters and interfere with the injector spray patterns. So HHO might be the same as DF2 (and might not) but it's probably not the same as winter Diesel.

Oh, and sulfur is irrelevant except reduced sulfur also reduces lubricity and may cause seals to leak but it makes the tree huggers happy. Sulfur would matter only if the exhaust system used some catalytic device.

ps: The anti-jell additives don't prevent the wax crystals from forming but they prevent the crystals from merging into the larger chunks that create problems. But if the fuel has already jelled, these additives won't do any good until the fuel is warmed and the crystals dissolve.

 

[Coyote machine]

Tier 3, Tier 4, etc. use different methods, controls, to effect end results for emissions standards for diesel engines. Tier 3 not as much as interim Tier 4, and Tier 4 final requirements. Diesel injector nozzles are very fine tuned at the factory before release to the consumer. Most manufacturers build them in clean rooms that are extremely dust/particulate free.
When fuel that has larger than normal particles of diesel try to pass through the injector it can jam the injector, cause pee like spray patterns or worse. This results in unburned fuel and less than ideal combustion. This results in smoking, poor fuel economy, etc.
Winterized or 'cut' diesel fuel in the Northeast states usually has Kero added to make it flow better, and to keep it from freezing in the diesel filters that may have trapped water in them from extracting same from the tank's condensation.
We used to use Red Line Diesel fuel catalyst for ALL our diesel foreign autos when I had my shop. Often the cars would come to the shop from having been on the mountain(s) overnight and they would be dead. Drained batteries, block heaters that couldn't overcome the effects of frozen fuel, etc. We'd take them into my shop and raise them on the lift and drain the oil and filter and fuel filter and fill the fuel tank with 'cut' diesel and Red Line. After several hours thawing out we'd send them on their way, with a big bill, and instructions on how to survive in the mountains of Vermont. These were mostly vacationers or tourists, but they all learned it takes more than a Mercedes to get through the winter here.

 

[powerscol]

Not sure I agree with the last statement as I had a jelled tank on my CT 235 (felt like jello) and I added a bunch (almost 1 QT) of PS 911 (orange bottle) I stirred as much as I could with a long paint stick and in a few minutes everything dissolved and the temps did not rise. Now un-jelling the fuel lines was a pain. I did have a block heater and plugged it in, but I had to pull the fuel filter, fill it with 911 and use the boss units hair dryer on all the lines. Took about an hour to get her to fire, and what a rough start with a huge amount of white smoke. I was about to resort to the old trick of the BBQ pan with charcoal and a big tarp. My grandfather did that when I was a kid and almost burned his truck up.... oil pan was covered in grease from leaking for 20 years Just a lot of smoke to hear him tell, but Grandma had another story.:cool2:

I had summer fuel in it and temps went well below zero - what fun

 

[ritcheyvs]

Not sure I agree with the last statement as I had a jelled tank on my CT 235 (felt like jello) and I added a bunch (almost 1 QT) of PS 911 (orange bottle) ...

I was referring to the additives used in "winterized" Diesel (vs winter Diesel which is a DF2/DF1 blend) which are used at much lower concentrations. A quart of 911 probably contains a considerable quantity of distillates that are even lighter than kerosene. So even a quart of 911 in 5-8 gallons would make a big difference. In the old Mercedes mechanical IP Diesels, the book says it's OK to add up to 20% gasoline to combat fuel jelling. But I understand the newest common rail (and maybe Tier 4) engines would have a problem with gasoline and even kerosene additives. I haven't used 911 but the Diesel Purge I have used is thinner than water.

I think the message here is that all Diesel is not created equal. The suppliers adjust their product by the calendar and geographic location so most drivers don't have problems and hardly give it a second thought. But for atypical use, like tractors, boats, long-haul, etc., we need to think about what's in the tank.

 

[sd455dan]

BLUE SMOKE is an indication of oil being burnt. The oil can enter the combustion chamber for several reasons.

Worn valve guides or seals

Wear in power assemblies (ie cylinders, piston rings, ring grooves)

Cylinder glaze

Piston ring sticking

Incorrect grade of oil (eg oil too thin, and migrating past the rings)

Fuel dilution in the oil (oil thinned out with diesel)

At cold start, blue smoke is often evident, and can reflect reduced oil control, due to fouling deposits around piston rings or cylinder glaze (which is actually carbon deposited in the machined cylinder crosshatching.

Disagree- in this case it is more likely un burned diesel and is made more apparent by the miss in time with the puff of smoke, agree with others- either there is a small amount of diesel from a leaky injector present at cold start up or one cylinders glow plug is weak or non functioning leading to the cylinder not building enough heat to fire for a short time on cold start up.
if this was an oil control problem it would also smoke at a summer temp start up- it does not...
Unburned diesel for whatever reason can re sult in a slightly blue exhaust color, but does Not smell like burned engine oil it does smell like partially burned diesel. jmo

 

[liberty2701]

Tier 3, Tier 4, etc. use different methods, controls, to effect end results for emissions standards for diesel engines. Tier 3 not as much as interim Tier 4, and Tier 4 final requirements. Diesel injector nozzles are very fine tuned at the factory before release to the consumer. Most manufacturers build them in clean rooms that are extremely dust/particulate free.
When fuel that has larger than normal particles of diesel try to pass through the injector it can jam the injector, cause pee like spray patterns or worse. This results in unburned fuel and less than ideal combustion. This results in smoking, poor fuel economy, etc.
Winterized or 'cut' diesel fuel in the Northeast states usually has Kero added to make it flow better, and to keep it from freezing in the diesel filters that may have trapped water in them from extracting same from the tank's condensation.
We used to use Red Line Diesel fuel catalyst for ALL our diesel foreign autos when I had my shop. Often the cars would come to the shop from having been on the mountain(s) overnight and they would be dead. Drained batteries, block heaters that couldn't overcome the effects of frozen fuel, etc. We'd take them into my shop and raise them on the lift and drain the oil and filter and fuel filter and fill the fuel tank with 'cut' diesel and Red Line. After several hours thawing out we'd send them on their way, with a big bill, and instructions on how to survive in the mountains of Vermont. These were mostly vacationers or tourists, but they all learned it takes more than a Mercedes to get through the winter here.

I get the particle size thing with the injector. I am just wondering why it diminished greatly as temps rose? That is why i was looking at the cetane level. Cetane is the most important thing on a cold start/ cold temps if I am reading it right? Again, not trying to be a Pia. Just trying to understand the whole process. I assume your reference to particle size is in the molecular level of the fuel not stuff in the fuel. It always pumped through a 10 micron/ water block filter plus the onboard tractor filter. Not sure what micron rating is for the tractor filter. Thanks

 

[liberty2701]

Just did a little more reading in the service manual. Kioti states the micron level of the onboard fuel filter at 90 microns. That is quite large. Also noticed the injection pressure operates quite low at about 2200 psi. Tried finding info on emmissions control for the engine and it appears there are none. Not sure what the diff is between this engine tier3 and the older tier engines as it relates to fuel.

 

[ritcheyvs]

IMO 2200 psi is about normal (or even on the high side) for a mechanical IP system.

For reference. my turbo OM617 Mercedes was 135-143 bar (1960-2075 psi) for the non-turbo version it's 115-125 bar (1668-1813 psi). These engines use the exact same injector shimmed to different pop pressures.

On the other hand, the new common rail auto systems supply high (like 15,000 psi and up) pressure to all injectors when the engine is running and the injectors are operated electrically.

I just did some looking and Tier 4 Kioti engines are common rail designs with catalyst/oxidizer exhaust systems. These require ULSD DF2, preferably winterized (e.g.additives) Diesel vs winter (blended with DF1)Diesel. I'm glad I have a Tier 3 engine.

 

[liberty2701]

IMO 2200 psi is about normal (or even on the high side) for a mechanical IP system.

For reference. my turbo OM617 Mercedes was 135-143 bar (1960-2075 psi) for the non-turbo version it's 115-125 bar (1668-1813 psi). These engines use the exact same injector shimmed to different pop pressures.

On the other hand, the new common rail auto systems supply high (like 15,000 psi and up) pressure to all injectors when the engine is running and the injectors are operated electrically.

I just did some looking and Tier 4 Kioti engines are common rail designs with catalyst/oxidizer exhaust systems. These require ULSD DF2, preferably winterized (e.g.additives) Diesel vs winter (blended with DF1)Diesel. I'm glad I have a Tier 3 engine.

This whole post started over the blue smoke when cold (unburnt diesel). It turned out it was the fuel. High sulphur Hho #2 to be exact. I did not do this on purpose.i assumed it was the same as pump diesel like it was in my old state where I lived. It turned out in NH they allow up to 3000 ppm of sulphur. The smoke never existed when a warm start or warm air temp occured. It always ran great except for the stink. I am trying to determine what if any unseen problems it may have caused. Being that i have a mechanical ip engine with no emmission control and always filtered it through a water block 10 micron filter. No one has given me an explanation other than speculation. Kioti also states diesel only. Not one mention of ulsd anywhere. Always used rotella 5/40 and changed the oil at 100 hrs . I also used Pri d on evey fill up.

 

[Ford850]

Makes you wonder if a big difference in the higher tiers is the ability to survive with lower lube in the fuel. If so, then higher sulfur wouldn't hurt the newer engines as much as ULSD would hurt an older engine.

 

[davesl708]

This whole post started over the blue smoke when cold (unburnt diesel). It turned out it was the fuel. High sulphur Hho #2 to be exact. I did not do this on purpose.i assumed it was the same as pump diesel like it was in my old state where I lived. It turned out in NH they allow up to 3000 ppm of sulphur. The smoke never existed when a warm start or warm air temp occured. It always ran great except for the stink. I am trying to determine what if any unseen problems it may have caused. Being that i have a mechanical ip engine with no emmission control and always filtered it through a water block 10 micron filter. No one has given me an explanation other than speculation. Kioti also states diesel only. Not one mention of ulsd anywhere. Always used rotella 5/40 and changed the oil at 100 hrs . I also used Pri d on evey fill up.

I would speculate that Kioti does not mention ulsd because it has been around here in the US for several years and the only way you can buy diesel.

 

[davesl708]

This whole post started over the blue smoke when cold (unburnt diesel). It turned out it was the fuel. High sulphur Hho #2 to be exact. I did not do this on purpose.i assumed it was the same as pump diesel like it was in my old state where I lived. It turned out in NH they allow up to 3000 ppm of sulphur. The smoke never existed when a warm start or warm air temp occured. It always ran great except for the stink. I am trying to determine what if any unseen problems it may have caused. Being that i have a mechanical ip engine with no emmission control and always filtered it through a water block 10 micron filter. No one has given me an explanation other than speculation. Kioti also states diesel only. Not one mention of ulsd anywhere. Always used rotella 5/40 and changed the oil at 100 hrs . I also used Pri d on evey fill up.

I would speculate that Kioti does not mention ulsd because it has been around here in the US for several years and the only way you can buy diesel.

 

[liberty2701]

I would speculate that Kioti does not mention ulsd because it has been around here in the US for several years and the only way you can buy diesel.[/QUOT

Does anyone here have a tier4? Does Kioti state ULSD on them?

Found this as to how they tested for tier 1 to 3.

Certification Fuels. Fuels with sulfur levels no greater than 0.2 wt% (2,000 ppm) were used for certification testing of Tier 1-3 engines. From 2011, all Tier 4 engines are tested using fuels of 7-15 ppm sulfur content. The transition from the 2000 ppm S specification to the 7-15 ppm specification took place in the 2006-2010 period (see Certification Diesel Fuel).

A change from measuring total hydrocarbons to nonmethane hydrocarbons (NMHC) has been introduced in the 1998 rule. Since there is no standardized EPA method for measuring methane in diesel engine exhaust, manufacturers can either use their own procedures to analyze nonmethane hydrocarbons or measure total hydrocarbons and subtract 2% from the measured hydrocarbon mass to correct for methane

So it appears they used HSD to conduct the testing early on.
Tier 4 is phased in from 2008 to 2015 for non road diesel. This requires ULSD.
Good to be TIER 3 WITH NO EMMISSION CONTROLS. Again, I know 2007 forward is suppose to use ULSD. However, it appears the engine can run the hsd with no ill effects as long it is a basic engine like my KIOTI with no emmission controls.
Now, after saying all that and keepng this thread alive. I am going back to ulsd simply because it smells better.

 

[Green Acres Homestead]

I had posted last year that my DK50 se was blowing lots of blue smoke on startup. Sent to dealer under warranty check and they attributed it to bad fuel. I received a $170 bill for that. Now that it is cold outside I started my tractor and it it blows tons of blue smoke for about 30 sec. It blows and blows until I raise the idle and then it starts to clear up and run smoother, It sound like an engine misfire when it is doing this. I did check all the glow plugs for function and they are good. I even swapped the fuel with no change. Is this a normal cold start for a Kioti? I have around 240 hrs on a 2014 model. I tried uploading a video and it is too big. I really do not want to go back to dealer and get another bill. Ran fine all summer with no smoke at all. It sucks because my MF before this never smoked on startup. I have to leave the barn until it clears so I can breathe. Any idea if I can upload the video? Zip file says 25mb

My brand new L2502 runs bad and smokes really bad for about 3 minutes when starting it at 0 degrees c or 32 f. I start it then run away.