Best Track Skid Steer Under 7,500 lbs?
- Thread starter Dougster
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Hi JMF - Something seems very wrong here. Why are actual owners, users and sellers of these ASV-track system machines telling me of multiple undercarriage rebuildings over a 2-3 year ownership period... one telling me of 3 undercarriage rebuildings in a mere 2,000 operating hours? Are these all defective or badly abused machines? Or is undercarraige rebuilding/refurbishment to be considered a regular maintenance expectation? I've got sales folks actually bragging to me that their brand machines will do "900 to 1,200 hours" before a major undercarriage maintenance... implying a somewhat longer undercarriage life than the competition: mainly ASV-based machines. Some sellers are bragging of recent rebuilds and telling me I shouldn't have to worry for another {fill in the blank} hours before I have to do it again.jmfox said:
Am I getting bum information here? If so, it certainly seems awfully consistent.
Please help me understand what's going on here! Dougster
Maka
Veteran Member
Here is what I have seen. First off is tracks. They should last 1500 (just an average I have seen much more) hours with good operating. What is good operation? Well, that includes not counter rotating on asphalt or concrete. It is fine to use them on these surfaces but you do 3 point turns vs. spinning. This adds lots of time to the track life. I have forestry packages that have 1300 hours with tracks that have 300 to 400 hours left on them. Heavy use but responsible operators.
Many people who don't know will look at the bogie wheels, tracks etc. and see what they believe is parts that need replacing when in fact they are usable for many many more 100's of hours. Unfortunatly some dealers will take advantage of the lack of knowledge and sell parts that don't really need it. This is frustrating for us who try and educate. For instance we have a guy who always turns one direction. He had far more wear on one side than the other and was sure he needed a new track on that side. Solution, swap sides and go keep going for 100's more hours.
ASV has done training here at our locations and have a usable vs. non-usable presentation that shows dealers what and when to replace such parts. On an ASV you could have a huge chunk out of the side of a track, a huge slice a puncture etc and it will not hinder or affect the performance of the track. The rule of thumb is that is the damage does not go beyond the lugs you are fine, keep running. Bogie wheels are meant to absorbe and if they have chunks out of them, are thinning some etc.. that is fine, keep using them.
One problem I see is that users don't grease regularly and never clean out the undercarriage. We have one in with 996 hours on it. It is a forestry package that was probably never cleaned from day one. Thick mud packed the under carriage and was hard as cement. These are durable systems but do take some general maintenance and some common sense and they will last a very long time.
ASV track systems are used on Cats and the Cat machines were not designed as track machines so they wear differently than an ASV machine will. If it is Cat owners compalining then that is a whole different issue as they will have much differnt use issues than an ASV designed with the track system from the ground up.
Maka
Many people who don't know will look at the bogie wheels, tracks etc. and see what they believe is parts that need replacing when in fact they are usable for many many more 100's of hours. Unfortunatly some dealers will take advantage of the lack of knowledge and sell parts that don't really need it. This is frustrating for us who try and educate. For instance we have a guy who always turns one direction. He had far more wear on one side than the other and was sure he needed a new track on that side. Solution, swap sides and go keep going for 100's more hours.
ASV has done training here at our locations and have a usable vs. non-usable presentation that shows dealers what and when to replace such parts. On an ASV you could have a huge chunk out of the side of a track, a huge slice a puncture etc and it will not hinder or affect the performance of the track. The rule of thumb is that is the damage does not go beyond the lugs you are fine, keep running. Bogie wheels are meant to absorbe and if they have chunks out of them, are thinning some etc.. that is fine, keep using them.
One problem I see is that users don't grease regularly and never clean out the undercarriage. We have one in with 996 hours on it. It is a forestry package that was probably never cleaned from day one. Thick mud packed the under carriage and was hard as cement. These are durable systems but do take some general maintenance and some common sense and they will last a very long time.
ASV track systems are used on Cats and the Cat machines were not designed as track machines so they wear differently than an ASV machine will. If it is Cat owners compalining then that is a whole different issue as they will have much differnt use issues than an ASV designed with the track system from the ground up.
Maka
Thanks Maka for the excellent explanation... and yes, this has mainly to do with the CAT machines. Those are the machines where I'm hearing 800, 700, 650 hours of use between expensive major undercarriage work.Maka said:
It's been explained to me over and over again how extended use on asphalt can be killer. I don't think I should have that problem so much (although I always load and unload my trailer on firm pavement)... and as owner/operator, I have no intent or wish to abuse the machine.
Sounds like I really need to refocus on the ASV machines instead of the CAT machines. Other folks have talked a lot about the big difference: Cat-vs-ASV... but I took it as mostly sales hype. Why would CAT use an ASV undercarriage if it doesn't work well???
But apparently, they do. That's a bit disappointing to hear. One last request: Based on your experience, can you please give me an expected range of operating hours you see for undercarriage major maintenance on an ASV machine vs. a CAT machine... low end for abused machines and high end for well-cared for machines.
If you care to put dollar range amounts on those major maintenance reworks, that would be even more helpful! Thanks!
Dougster
Maka makes some good points. I'd like to add my two cents...I think that the reason CAT uses the ASV undercarriage is that they did not want to develop their own system, and they had determined that the system that Bobcat was using wasn't right either. I used to sell Bobcats against both ASV and CAT, and while I can't give you specific cost differences (maybe Maka can chime in), I can tell you that the ASV machines experience a lower operating cost and longer life than the CAT MTLs due primarily to the fact that the ASV machines were intended to be tracked machines from the beginning. You can see this during demonstrations. When went up against CAT my biggest challenge was to sell against the CAT name and not the performance of the machine (I does perform o.k.), but when I sold against the ASV machines (especially if a demo was involved) I had a hard time because their machines performed so well. I no longer sell machines, but own two (S220 and RC50) and teach 8th grade math and work landscaping during the summer.
Terra Firma Scott
Silver Member
Another 2 cents...My CAT 257B High Flow is a 2004 model with 1200 hours on it..It has the ASV trck system..Weight is just under 7500 lbs..In 2006 approx 1000 hrs 1 of 24 idler/bogie wheels failed...no big deal..warranty covered it anyway!..Tracks are at best 50% remaining life and I feel no difference in grip what soever..I have seen these machines nearing 2500 hrs with original tracks still running....Rubber chunking and delapidated but still going...All depends on how you rotate on them and what your type of biz is....I mainly only ever touch the asphalt if I am unloading from the trailer or the occassional run across driveways....All my rollers and pins are nearly good as new...minimal play between them...As a owner operator you take care of your equipment as best possible that means frequent cleaning of the undercarriage... Now if I could just get over the fact it is getting a new engine this week
Terra Firma Scott
Silver Member
NOPE...Customer PAY.....Warranty ran out in MAY..... No help from CAT..I cried for any assistance available even split the bill said NO...Gave the go ahead for the engine R&R since its worth absolutely nothing not running.....
Hard knots....
No help from CAT..I cried for any assistance available even split the bill said NO...Gave the go ahead for the engine R&R since its worth absolutely nothing not running.....Hard knots....