BCS - diesel or gasoline

[maciek8791]

Hello,

I am now preparing myself to buy my first BCS. For me, it's going to be used also for garden services, not only for private job. However I do not have any experience with BCS system. I wanted to buy the diesel, because of lower cost of fuel - what I read is that gasoline versions take almost the double of what diesel takes. I also wanted to buy the HST version - my current Kubota also has HST and I like to have this as something more comfortable to operate.

However the more I read and check, the more doubts I have.

I discovered, that people who do services with this equipment, do not choose diesel very often. They usualy take honda or little bit stronger B&S engine. I heard following explanations :

1. Diesel is much more heavier than gasoline - so it's much harder to manuveur with it
2. Diesel makes much more noise and also much more vibrations comparing with gas

And for HST I am also not so sure anymore, because some folks say, that with HST You got always less PTO power- this is valid for tractors but difference is not that big. Also if I understand correctly, to operate back and forth with HST, I just have to switch one handle right? But to move back and forth with non-hst, from what I saw, it does not looks much more complicated. It's simly reverse and forward switch. While with my tractor there is a huge benefit with HST, maybe it's not a big addon with BCS?

best regards
M.

 

[RalphVa]

Don't have specific info on BCS, but I had a 12 hp Gravely gasoline 2 wheeler for 4 years and have info on fuel efficency of carbureted gas vs. diesel.

We engineers in the 80s had a good mix of gasoline and diesel engined vehicles. The gas ones all had carbs like the majority of gas tractor and utility engines still have today. The gasoline engines used 50% more fuel than non turbo diesels.

The Gravely I had was unusable until I put steering brakes on it. Luckily, the local out-of-business Gravely dealer had a set of steering brakes in stock. Marvelous system. It had one handle to steer it by, which manipulated brake levers to the right and left wheels depending on which way you tweeked it.

Think the BCS has steering brakes, but you have to apply them independently. This is not as nice and goof proof as the Gravely system.

Yes, the diesel would be heavier and would vibrate more. By comparison, the 8 hp Gravely were apparently light enough to steer without steering brakes. However, you have to be like a linebacker or guard or lineman in football to steer the 12 hp ones, especially on hills like we have.

The Gravely did not have HST, just forward and reverse, both very slow. Cannot imagine why you need HST on a 2 wheeled tractor.

 

[priberc]

Hello,

I am now preparing myself to buy my first BCS. For me, it's going to be used also for garden services, not only for private job. However I do not have any experience with BCS system. I wanted to buy the diesel, because of lower cost of fuel - what I read is that gasoline versions take almost the double of what diesel takes. I also wanted to buy the HST version - my current Kubota also has HST and I like to have this as something more comfortable to operate.

However the more I read and check, the more doubts I have.

I discovered, that people who do services with this equipment, do not choose diesel very often. They usualy take honda or little bit stronger B&S engine. I heard following explanations :

1. Diesel is much more heavier than gasoline - so it's much harder to manuveur with it
2. Diesel makes much more noise and also much more vibrations comparing with gas

And for HST I am also not so sure anymore, because some folks say, that with HST You got always less PTO power- this is valid for tractors but difference is not that big. Also if I understand correctly, to operate back and forth with HST, I just have to switch one handle right? But to move back and forth with non-hst, from what I saw, it does not looks much more complicated. It's simly reverse and forward switch. While with my tractor there is a huge benefit with HST, maybe it's not a big addon with BCS?

best regards
M.

I have both diesel and Gas BCS. Both are conventional/gear driven though so I can only speak to the engines. My diesel is much louder than the Honda's. When the wind is blowing correctly the diesel can be smelled when I am using it for towing the trailer. Those are my observations using mine. Yes the diesel uses a bit bit less fuel but really how many hours are you going to use it a year? How many gallons of fuel will you run through it is an average year? Is the extra for the diesel worth it? For me it is and so far the diesel has cost zero in extra cost for fuel stabilizers etc.....and I have had to put a couple of those mickey mouse in tank filters in the gas ones. I think in part because of fuel sitting over the winter waxes up and plugs the screens over a few years. I have started to use the non ethanol fuels when it gets close to store them for the winter. .
I was not aware that BCS had a HST model. I looked it up and you are right.....they do. As for lost PTO power. The PTO seems to be gear drive according to what I read. So any power loss would be from turning the pressure pump. IMO the power loss from that would be minimal if any over the conventional gear driven.
One benefit I can think of with a HST is a better "choice" of wheel speeds with a steady PTO speed. There could be a significant increase in work done per hour for some attachments like a power harrow ,tiller ,snow blower.....sweeper. At times with the tiller and mowers I use the most I find there are times 1st gear is way too slow......and second is just too fast to do a good job or unusable altogether. I found that to be the case with the sickle bar mower in particular. At the end of the day you will have to decide what works for you and what your wallet will allow
What model were you looking at 779 or 660?

 

[travisbb]

Since you are using it for garden services you are likely to put many more hours on it than I do as a private owner. In that case the fuel savings probably make sense. As long as you have a reliable place to get the diesel serviced I'd suggest going that way.

HST would be awesome to have. There are lots of times where I get stuck between gears because the engine can't quite keep up in the higher gear or I would need to change gears often for thick spots. Being able to adjust speed more finely and do so without releasing the clutch would improve my productivity.

When I was deciding which to go with for my Grillo, I chose gas for three reasons:

1. Better cold weather starts. I've never had a problem starting at -20c (-4f). I was worried about starting the small diesel in the cold. My tractor lives in an unheated shed.

2. You can get Honda small engine parts and service anywhere. Getting the diesel serviced was going to be very difficult for me.

3. All the other small equipment runs on gas, so I'll always have gas on hand. If I had gone with diesel i would have needed a separate diesel store just for the tractor. It's pretty convenient to never worry about running out of gas because I have two or three cans plus the half-full tanks of all the other small equipment. A gas tractor also means I'm sure that I rotate my gas supply often enough.

Everything else was mostly a wash. Yes the diesel is a bit louder, but the Honda I have is hardly quiet. With any implement running I feel the need to wear ear defenders anyways.

Yes the diesel should use less fuel, but my GX390 averages around 2 litres per hour, so it just doesn't add up to much of a difference for the 50~60 hours a year I use it.

The diesel engine is a bit heavier, which would be good when pulling a trailer, with ground implements, or when clearing snow, but would be bad when mowing. Proper counterbalance may require PTO extensions, which makes the whole unit more cumbersome.

 

[priberc]

Hello,

I am now preparing myself to buy my first BCS. For me, it's going to be used also for garden services, not only for private job. However I do not have any experience with BCS system. I wanted to buy the diesel, because of lower cost of fuel - what I read is that gasoline versions take almost the double of what diesel takes. I also wanted to buy the HST version - my current Kubota also has HST and I like to have this as something more comfortable to operate.

However the more I read and check, the more doubts I have.

I discovered, that people who do services with this equipment, do not choose diesel very often. They usualy take honda or little bit stronger B&S engine. I heard following explanations :

1. Diesel is much more heavier than gasoline - so it's much harder to manuveur with it
2. Diesel makes much more noise and also much more vibrations comparing with gas

And for HST I am also not so sure anymore, because some folks say, that with HST You got always less PTO power- this is valid for tractors but difference is not that big. Also if I understand correctly, to operate back and forth with HST, I just have to switch one handle right? But to move back and forth with non-hst, from what I saw, it does not looks much more complicated. It's simly reverse and forward switch. While with my tractor there is a huge benefit with HST, maybe it's not a big addon with BCS?

best regards
M.

I should mention on my diesel I have steering brakes.....they make life a lot easier maneuvering these. The Honda powered machines are just fine in large gardens/market gardens. As the garden plot gets smaller they become tiring fast maneuvering them

 

[Jens767]

Hi maciek8791

From your post it sounds like you prepare your purchase of a new BCS tractor well - I like that!

I fully agree with the comments above, and perhaps I can add a few things as well.

You are of course not the first one to consider gasoline versus diesel when looking for a 2-wheel tractor, but it surely is an important consideration, worth getting right. If you haven’t read them already, there are a number of threads in this forum on this topic that might touch on some of your concerns:

Gasoline versus diesel

Bcs or Grillo diesel vs gas?

On the homepage of Earth Tools, Joel has listed some of his thoughts on this topic as well:

Frequently Asked Questions - Earth Tools

If I understand you right, you expect to use your BCS professionally, which means that you will probably put more hours on your tractor than most of us. This favors the diesel, as that engine has a lower fuel consumption, and at the same time burns a cheeper fuel. Depending on the fuel prices in your region, you will probably need to use your diesel engine for several hundred hours though, in order to pay for the extra investment up front.

To get some ballpark figures, one can compare the Grillo G107D from Earth Tools:

• 8 hp Kohler diesel engine with electric start: $4200
• 11 hp Honda gasoline engine with manual start: $3229

It might be unfair to compare a gasoline engine with manual start with a diesel engine with electric start, but I think most users with diesel engines recommend electric start, whereas I have never missed it on the gasoline engine. For almost 11 years now, my Honda GX390 has happily started on the first pull in around 90 % of the cases, and at very close to 100 % after 2 pulls.

In this case, the extra cost of the diesel powered tractor is: 4200 - 3229 = $971 (849.70 Euro)

I just drove by my local fuel station, and the fuel prices today are:

• diesel fuel: 1.659 Euro/liter ($7.19/US gallon)
• gasoline: 1.809 Euro/liter ($7.84/US gallon)

As travisbb states in his reply, I also have the experience that my Honda GX390 engine uses around 2 liter of gasoline per hour, when run at close to maximum engine speed. RalphVa has experienced that gasoline engines uses 50 % more fuel than diesel engines.

Based on these numbers, the diesel engine will have to run: 849.70/(2 x 1.809 - 1.33 x 1.659) = 604 hours in order to save you the extra initial costs of $971, in saved fuel costs alone. Depending on the fuel prices - and the difference in fuel prices - in your region, you might reach the break even point earlier or later than this.

2-wheel tractors with hydrostatic transmission are rare in this forum. They are rarely mentioned, and the threads where they are discussed, are not used much. Perhaps they are rare because many of us use our tractors privately, and compared to tractors with a mechanical transmission, the hydrostatic ones are rather expensive.

A diesel engine is by design heavier than a gasoline one, and this of course makes the entire tractor more heavy. This added weight might be beneficial in some situations, as modern 2-wheel tractors often run out of traction before they run out of power. It is important though to remember, that the heavier engine changes the balance of the entire tractor/implement setup. This might be an advantage when working with a heavy front mounted implement for instance, but a disadvantage with a light sickle bar mower.

A diesel engine also tends to be noisier than a gasoline one. In my owner’s manual to my BCS 740, there is a table stating that the sound pressure level of the gasoline version is 82.9 dB(A), whereas the diesel version is 90.3 dB(A). A difference of 7.4 dB(A) might at first glance seem like a minor difference, but as the decibel scale is logarithmic and not linear, a 6 dB(A) increase in sound pressure level doubles the sound pressure! In this comparison, the sound pressure is more than 2.3 times higher for the diesel engine, meaning that long-term exposure might lead to hearing damage to the unprotected ear!

I think that the diesel option might be the right choice for some, but for the majority of users, the gasoline option is the logical choice. More important than fuel cost, is how the BCS will fit into your current setup, and you will have a much wider range of 2-wheel tractors to choose between, if you go for a gasoline engine.


Best regards

Jens

 

[maciek8791]

(...) A diesel engine is by design heavier than a gasoline one, and this of course makes the entire tractor more heavy. This added weight might be beneficial in some situations, as modern 2-wheel tractors often run out of traction before they run out of power. (...)

(...) increase in sound pressure level doubles the sound pressure! In this comparison, the sound pressure is more than 2.3 times higher for the diesel engine (...)

I think that the diesel option might be the right choice for some, but for the majority of users, the gasoline option is the logical choice. More important than fuel cost, is how the BCS will fit into your current setup, and you will have a much wider range of 2-wheel tractors to choose between, if you go for a gasoline engine.

Thank You very much for all this input, it was very interesting for me to read. To be true after reading those posts, I am now leaning towards gasoline version. I made some check of what my competition is using and 95% it's gasoline, without HST. The main argument which they present is the weight. According to them, if You do it as a job to earn money, then it means that You HAVE TO do it sometimes much more than You want to do it, and You need to manuver a lot. Not always You come to process just a nice square, sometimes there is a lot of obstacles, which is also a reason why I need BCS as a smaller alternative to my Kubota compact tractor. And then, if You have to move around a lot with BCS, the less weight the better. They also raise argument that diesel is more costly to maintain, HST too. Your input, that the diesel is twice as loud as gasoline is also something interesting for me, however I planned to use my ear protection anyway. I will go next week to a dealer to check both versions but looks like the gasoline is a better choice, maybe the fast-reverse system can help me to overcome lack of HST...

 

[Code54]

I have a gas BCS and really it uses very little fuel in the grand scheme of things. I doubt with the price difference in Diesel vs Gas you will notice much savings let alone make up the higher purchase price for a diesel machine.
As for the HST - It is really interesting may have an advantage IF you are working on hills and off camber slopes. If I till the garden I never give any thought to the gear drive. When I am brush mowing in the woods the HST maybe nice if you can control each wheels speed separately. You do need to be careful on hills when shifting the gear drive - If you are shifting though "Neutral' on a hill it can roll back on you. I dont know if the HST changes this but something to look into if you work on slopes.

 

[marnebcs]

While I really love these 1 cylinder Yanmars they use in BCS tractors, I can confirm they are really loud. Annoying loud.
I have 2 machines that use them, but they're no 2 wheelers.
What would concern me even more is the insane vibration they give. Nothing you want on handlebars which you have to have in a tight grip all the time. You'll wear your body's joints.
Additional I think they stink, their fumes are really bad and starting them cold without an electric start is tough. Those Honda GXs run smooth, quiet and clean and start in literally any climate on the spot. Definitely would go for one. I would consider the HST instead. As stated before, the 1st gear sometimes is too slow, 2nd too fast, if using the flail in really damp and dense brush, you temporary want to be even slower than the 1st gear. Instant reverse could be nice as well. If I had to buy again, I would pick a gasser with HST.

Best regards.

 

[marnebcs]

Ah I forgot to mention some serious pros for the yanmars.
They have a wonderful balanced torque across all rpms and they literally sip fuel. Sometimes I'm not sure if they use any fuel at all but the biggest pro is: they're simple and robust. No electronics and no glitter. My oldest unit has over 1700hrs on it with 1-3 starts per hour, complete trouble free, no oil usage, no power loss, according to the advice of an insider, I did not even adjust the valve lash. These units can reach 10k hours. Anyway, for a 2 wheeler, the Honda would be my choice, except you're have random users wich don't mind some vibrations.