Battery based vehicles of today and tomorrow pt 2

[MossRoad]

it dropped without a correlation to a direct alternative that uses no gas, therefore the drop is due to some other factor.

In other words, you're trying to say:

 

[Jchonline]

you were just bragging how short your payback period is, to now say adding batteries throws off the economics of the matter to the point you won't consider them.

Yes I question, not bash and there is a difference, the logic of going through the process of generating electricity to only put it back into the grid at net consumption. I know the sun is not shining everyday, so without batteries, you have to somehow make extra power those sunny days to make up for the cloudy days. Batteries solve the problem of clouds.

He is correct about the extensive cost of a battery system. Let me give you some examples.

3.8 kWh Simplifi LFP (Lithium) battery will cost you around $2500. That is $658 per KW. Now you cant discharge these batteries fully and keep the life long…so lets go with a discharge of 80% max.

If you need to size a system to run your house at night or grid down with AC going you will also need to be sure the surge Amps of the battery series and the the inverters can support it. This is a fairly tall order, but we will skip it for now.

Lets just assume our friend needs a 30 KWH battery bank for his needs. At 80% DOD that would be 36kwh of actual batteries. 36 * 657 = $23,652…that doesnt include the inverters, generator, or installation. This size system would probably end up costing $45-50k in the end.

A powerwall is about $950 per kWh so its even more….still has to be installed.

While I do agree a backup power system is something we should all have, I understand why some choose not to do it.

 

[Snobdds]

it dropped without a correlation to a direct alternative that uses no gas, therefore the drop is due to some other factor.

Here's the headline from that chart:

EVs are almost 90% of Norwegian car sales, but gasoline demand has barely budged.

That's implying a direct correlation to EV sales and gasoline demand.

It also ignores the fact that it's own chart shows gasoline sales dropping about 50% while showing the climb in EV sales.

That's implying direct correlation.

I'm pretty sure I said it dropped without a correlation.

Yep, I did.

 

[Buggs67]

People already figured it out and the details have been posted many times. During the pandemic, there was low demand, so the price dropped. People saved tons of money during the pandemic. The economy started booming, there's record employment levels, salaries are increasing, companies can't find people fast enough and pay them high enough wages to keep them, people have money to spend, they're buying up everything as fast as it can be put on the shelves. Which reduces supply. Which increases price.

I eat lunch with several guys that constantly comment on the price of fuel that's "killing me". So I asked all of them if they've:
- modified their driving habits because of it? Nope.
- How many times did you go out to eat last week? A few.
- Did you get a raise this year? Yes, we all did.
- Have you lowered your 401K contributions? No.
- Do you use credit cards that you don't pay off monthly? No.
- Have you had to cut back on anything at all? Not really.
- Do you want government to regulate industry? No.

But you want government to do something about the price of fuel? Uh, errr.

Fuel, food, building materials, clothing, cars, you name it; as long as people keep buying things companies will keep raising prices to see how much blood they can squeeze from that turnip. It will only reverse course when people stop buying things and that hasn't happened yet.

And, even if that does happen, prices will never go back to what they were, because on average, people make more money now than they did before, so prices will only drop as low as the market conditions warrant.

Supply and demand tempered by disposable and discretionary income.

Hit the nail on the head!!

Also how interesting that a thread on electric vehicles has been derailed into a discussion/argument about PV and batteries and payback periods. And China building coal fired plants.

 

[Snobdds]

While I do agree a backup power system is something we should all have, I understand why some choose not to do it.

I have still not found a convincing angle to only go grid tied solar.

It's like walking with only one shoe on...

 

[NoTrespassing]

I never understood why people that think the oil companies are ripping them off don't just turn around and buy stock in the companies they think are doing it. Just about anyone can open a trading account and trades are very cheap. Chevron has doubled since Nov. 2020.

 

[Roric]

I have still not found a convincing angle to only go grid tied solar.

It's like walking with only one shoe on...

I self-installed a 7.5 kw grid-tied system 30 months ago.
Total out-of-pocket outlay was $9400.
Previous electric bills were just over $2000 per year.
Generate about 9100 kwh per year.
(2600 sq foot house, plug-in electric vehicle and mini-split A/C)
KWH rates and other charges have gone up.


Currently I am a couple hundred dollars ahead every year since.

I am not about to convince you about grid-tied solar; I only had to convince me.

It's like driving into the future while only looking in the rear view mirror:
Won't work for long.
regards,

R

 

[Fuddy1952]

People already figured it out and the details have been posted many times. During the pandemic, there was low demand, so the price dropped. People saved tons of money during the pandemic. The economy started booming, there's record employment levels, salaries are increasing, companies can't find people fast enough and pay them high enough wages to keep them, people have money to spend, they're buying up everything as fast as it can be put on the shelves. Which reduces supply. Which increases price.

I eat lunch with several guys that constantly comment on the price of fuel that's "killing me". So I asked all of them if they've:
- modified their driving habits because of it? Nope.
- How many times did you go out to eat last week? A few.
- Did you get a raise this year? Yes, we all did.
- Have you lowered your 401K contributions? No.
- Do you use credit cards that you don't pay off monthly? No.
- Have you had to cut back on anything at all? Not really.
- Do you want government to regulate industry? No.

But you want government to do something about the price of fuel? Uh, errr.

Fuel, food, building materials, clothing, cars, you name it; as long as people keep buying things companies will keep raising prices to see how much blood they can squeeze from that turnip. It will only reverse course when people stop buying things and that hasn't happened yet.

And, even if that does happen, prices will never go back to what they were, because on average, people make more money now than they did before, so prices will only drop as low as the market conditions warrant.

Supply and demand tempered by disposable and discretionary income.

I guess I'm the odd man out since I disagree with this.
"But you want government to do something about the price of fuel? Uh, errr."
Well...government (our CURRENT) government DID do something about it.
Is or isn't ***** responsible for closing the pipeline, stopping new wells, letting existing wells pump. etc?
Somehow, magically, fuel more that doubles in price under this administration because NOW is the time for big oil companies to overcharge the public??? They magically didn't think to do that two years ago???
UHHHHH, ERRRRR!!?!???
Gee...wow!
And commodities also increasing in price, again especially in the last two years...it's Proctor & Gamble, Nike, auto industry, on & on & on...They're "squeezing the stupid turnips", raping the public, raking in $billions...BECAUSE THEY CAN?!?!?
UHHHHH, ERRRRRR!?!?!
You believe that? Gee...it couldn't be runaway inflation could it?
Think man, think!
Now...your turn to evicerate me, tell me how stupid I am...go for it.

 

[Snobdds]

I self-installed a 7.5 kw grid-tied system 30 months ago.
Total out-of-pocket outlay was $9400.
Previous electric bills were just over $2000 per year.
Generate about 9100 kwh per year.
(2600 sq foot house, plug-in electric vehicle and mini-split A/C)
KWH rates and other charges have gone up.


Currently I am a couple hundred dollars ahead every year since.

I am not about to convince you about grid-tied solar; I only had to convince me.

It's like driving into the future while only looking in the rear view mirror:
Won't work for long.
regards,

R

I won't try and convince you about the questionable math here...i only have to convince myself.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Fascinating to me how affordable gas/diesel was just two years ago...but now because of "big oil companies overcharging", or "supply & demand" issues, or "Russia" (or sundry of other excuses) we're now paying $double++ for fuel.
Amazing & interesting yet no one can figure it out.???

What part of those three answers did you not like? They are all factual.