Bill_in_MI
Silver Member
Here is a photo of the 8 ft batts the way Morton does it, as mentioned in an earlier post. I put steel on the inside...same as the outside, and blown in ceiling.
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Barn insulation
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Don_Curley
Bronze Member
BayRat,
I have both a 30'x40' and a 30'x60' metal buildings on my property. Be careful if you attempt to use that expanding foam in an aerosol can ... even if you get the low expanding stuff, it can "push-out" and deform some of your metal sufaces as it cures and continues to expand (which happened to me when I used the stuff in the building corners where I had a lot of open voids and air leakage areas). I ended-up using caulk to seal the small openings along the top and bottom edges of the corregated paneling ... and other than being somewhat labor intensive, it did the trick just fine, and caused none of the issues I had with the aerosol foam. Also, while I don't think mice "eat" the cured foam as a food source, I have had then chew through it.
Don
I have both a 30'x40' and a 30'x60' metal buildings on my property. Be careful if you attempt to use that expanding foam in an aerosol can ... even if you get the low expanding stuff, it can "push-out" and deform some of your metal sufaces as it cures and continues to expand (which happened to me when I used the stuff in the building corners where I had a lot of open voids and air leakage areas). I ended-up using caulk to seal the small openings along the top and bottom edges of the corregated paneling ... and other than being somewhat labor intensive, it did the trick just fine, and caused none of the issues I had with the aerosol foam. Also, while I don't think mice "eat" the cured foam as a food source, I have had then chew through it.
Don
Anderson
Bronze Member
yes, put the plastic between the insulation and the sheetrock. probably not so important in a pole barn, but in a house, plastic on the outside will collect condensation, and cause wet insulation, mold, and mildew - a sick house.
Chillimau
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My understanding....
Where you put the vapor barrier depends on what type of climate you are in. You want the vapor barrier on the warm side. Outside of wall if you live in a mostly cooling climate or inside of wall if you live in a mostly heating climate or only intend to heat the building, such as a barn/shop. The goal would be to not have moisture condensing on the vapor barrier and wetting the insulation.
Anyway, I thinkyou want the vapor barrier on the inside of building.
Gary
Where you put the vapor barrier depends on what type of climate you are in. You want the vapor barrier on the warm side. Outside of wall if you live in a mostly cooling climate or inside of wall if you live in a mostly heating climate or only intend to heat the building, such as a barn/shop. The goal would be to not have moisture condensing on the vapor barrier and wetting the insulation.
Anyway, I thinkyou want the vapor barrier on the inside of building.
Gary
Anderson
Bronze Member
I should have made it clear I was responding to bayrat's NY climate
Thankfully, a vapor barrier is relatively easy to install on the inside.
Thankfully, a vapor barrier is relatively easy to install on the inside.
Chillimau
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Anderson,
I didn't even pay attention to were bayrat lived. My fault. I just noticed some of the earlier posts about putting the vapor barrier on the outside.
Gary
I didn't even pay attention to were bayrat lived. My fault. I just noticed some of the earlier posts about putting the vapor barrier on the outside.
Gary
StoneHeartFarm
Veteran Member
Shade2u2
Put the vapor barrier on the inside. The purpose here is to help prevent moisture from entering the walls from inside the structure (living area). It keeps normal interior moisture from penetrating the wall. Any moisture that DOES get in the wall should be allowed to 'breathe' to the outside (hence housewrap). I haven't heard anything about putting the moisture barrier on the outside in warm climates, but it's possible. Seems like it would defeat the purpose which is to keep human made moisture from getting into the walls. But, I really don't know much about hot weather environments. In SE Ohio, I would still go with putting it on the inside. Owens Corning has a good website with may pages of info. There is also a Vapor barrier page that comes out of the Univ of Alaska. These might be able to give you clearer info.
SHF
Put the vapor barrier on the inside. The purpose here is to help prevent moisture from entering the walls from inside the structure (living area). It keeps normal interior moisture from penetrating the wall. Any moisture that DOES get in the wall should be allowed to 'breathe' to the outside (hence housewrap). I haven't heard anything about putting the moisture barrier on the outside in warm climates, but it's possible. Seems like it would defeat the purpose which is to keep human made moisture from getting into the walls. But, I really don't know much about hot weather environments. In SE Ohio, I would still go with putting it on the inside. Owens Corning has a good website with may pages of info. There is also a Vapor barrier page that comes out of the Univ of Alaska. These might be able to give you clearer info.
SHF
<font color=blue>So much good information now I think I'll have to sit down and do some price comparisons. That 8' batting sounds easiest but as mentioned, I would still have to put something up to hold the drywall. I had thought of using 1x3's but my friend told me that would compress the insulation too much. He thinks they don't make the thinner type that used to be used in 2x4 construction any longer, that is what I had planned on using. I don't know the answer, I'll have to find out when I start pricing. Don't know if the 8' batting would be more cost effective than the 24" either. Believe it or not, as ignorant as I am with this remodeling/building process, I shocked my carpenter friend when <font color=red> I came up with the two section walls using economy 2x4's idea</font color=red>!! Must be osmosis. Unbelievable winter here so far, only a few inches of snow has fallen all year.
DVerbarg
Platinum Member
Shade2u2,
To your question: <font color=blue>Is the Tyvek house wrap perferated to allow breathing? </font color=blue> Tyvek's web site states:
<font color=blue>The unique, nonwoven-fiber structure of Tyvek® HomeWrap® resists air infiltration and water intrusion, yet is engineered to readily allow moisture vapor to diffuse through the sheet, helping prevent mold and mildew buildup and wood rot. The fibrous structure is engineered with microscopic pores that readily allow moisture vapor to evaporate but are so small that bulk water and air cannot penetrate.</font color=blue>
Regarding if it is ok to use with plastic type vapor barrier on the outside that would depend on your geographic location and construction techniques. I've seen houses that have no problems and others that have had severe moisture damage in the stud spaces due to trapped moisture. The problems have been the exception and are probably due to poor construction techniques that allowed water, not just moisture, into the wall cavity (which is more "moisture" then the Tyvek can quickly allow to dissipate).
To your question: <font color=blue>Is the Tyvek house wrap perferated to allow breathing? </font color=blue> Tyvek's web site states:
<font color=blue>The unique, nonwoven-fiber structure of Tyvek® HomeWrap® resists air infiltration and water intrusion, yet is engineered to readily allow moisture vapor to diffuse through the sheet, helping prevent mold and mildew buildup and wood rot. The fibrous structure is engineered with microscopic pores that readily allow moisture vapor to evaporate but are so small that bulk water and air cannot penetrate.</font color=blue>
Regarding if it is ok to use with plastic type vapor barrier on the outside that would depend on your geographic location and construction techniques. I've seen houses that have no problems and others that have had severe moisture damage in the stud spaces due to trapped moisture. The problems have been the exception and are probably due to poor construction techniques that allowed water, not just moisture, into the wall cavity (which is more "moisture" then the Tyvek can quickly allow to dissipate).
beenthere
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The answer is yes to both questions.
StoneHeartFarm
Veteran Member
Shade2u2
The others have it right. Yes you can use Tyvek with a vapor barrier, in fact it's part of the same system. Think of a wall this way: drywall, vapor barrier, insulation, sheating, housewrap, foam, siding.
The purpose of the vapor barrier is to keep inside moisture from getting into the wall. The purpose of the house wrap is to keep Outside moisture from getting into the wall and allow any moisture that DOES get into the wall to breathe through the housewrap and get away from the sheating. The foam keeps that moisture from freezing in the winter so that it doesn't freeze on the sheating and wait till spring to all thaw at once. Ideally, any moisture that does get into the wall will move through the insulation, sheating and housewrap and run harmlessly down the inside of the foam. A good vapor barrier keeps this to a minimum. The paper backing n insulation is not considered a good vapor barrier. Just don't over do it, I've seen a very few homes that have been way too plastic lined and the homeowners have had moisture problems. If you use a vapor barrier, a ventless LP heater may be a bad idea for instance because they emit a heck of a lot of vapor that has to go somewhere.
I used Pink wrap rather than the Tyvek. Pink wrap is a woven product, which makes it easy to imagine moisture passing through the tiny cracks. Maybe somebody that has experience with Tyvek can answer this, but I don't believe it is woven the same way as pink wrap.
SHF
The others have it right. Yes you can use Tyvek with a vapor barrier, in fact it's part of the same system. Think of a wall this way: drywall, vapor barrier, insulation, sheating, housewrap, foam, siding.
The purpose of the vapor barrier is to keep inside moisture from getting into the wall. The purpose of the house wrap is to keep Outside moisture from getting into the wall and allow any moisture that DOES get into the wall to breathe through the housewrap and get away from the sheating. The foam keeps that moisture from freezing in the winter so that it doesn't freeze on the sheating and wait till spring to all thaw at once. Ideally, any moisture that does get into the wall will move through the insulation, sheating and housewrap and run harmlessly down the inside of the foam. A good vapor barrier keeps this to a minimum. The paper backing n insulation is not considered a good vapor barrier. Just don't over do it, I've seen a very few homes that have been way too plastic lined and the homeowners have had moisture problems. If you use a vapor barrier, a ventless LP heater may be a bad idea for instance because they emit a heck of a lot of vapor that has to go somewhere.
I used Pink wrap rather than the Tyvek. Pink wrap is a woven product, which makes it easy to imagine moisture passing through the tiny cracks. Maybe somebody that has experience with Tyvek can answer this, but I don't believe it is woven the same way as pink wrap.
SHF
BHarrison
Silver Member
The cost of spray foam will far outweigh anything else. It runs about 2x more than any other way of insulating. They payback is in utilities usage. I have a standard construction home that I had faom sprayed in the walls, and you would be suprised how little my A/C unit (Geothermal Heat-Pump) runs.
I too am confused about how that guy was figuring a square foot, but when they quote, they should know if they're quoting a stud wall or a metal building. What is sprayed on a metal building is a totally different mixture than what is sprayed in a stud wall. They are different densities. What is sprayed in a metal building is much more dense, and only expands to apx 1 1/2". What goes in a stud wall is more "soft" and will expand to about 6". (They shave off the excess) All of this comes from about 1/8" of product sprayed on the wall. One nice factor is that it is dense enough to screw into, but there is also a difference in fire ratings. The denser material will burn easier than the lighter material.
As far as pricing goes, I had my house done in 2000 and it was around $4.75 / sf. (1x1) They quoted me about $1.75 / sf for my shop.
I hope that made sense. I'm not very good at explaining things.
I too am confused about how that guy was figuring a square foot, but when they quote, they should know if they're quoting a stud wall or a metal building. What is sprayed on a metal building is a totally different mixture than what is sprayed in a stud wall. They are different densities. What is sprayed in a metal building is much more dense, and only expands to apx 1 1/2". What goes in a stud wall is more "soft" and will expand to about 6". (They shave off the excess) All of this comes from about 1/8" of product sprayed on the wall. One nice factor is that it is dense enough to screw into, but there is also a difference in fire ratings. The denser material will burn easier than the lighter material.
As far as pricing goes, I had my house done in 2000 and it was around $4.75 / sf. (1x1) They quoted me about $1.75 / sf for my shop.
I hope that made sense. I'm not very good at explaining things.
