Backhoe

[JiminMI]

Gentlemen, I need some information. I have been shopping for a L3010 with FEL and backhoe. My dealer (the one where I want to buy it) says to eliminate the backhoe pump and resevoir and connect to the fluid lines of the FEL so that the fluids circulate more. He feels that because I may not use the backhoe as much as a commercial person might (probably right), that the fluids will get less condesation and run through the filter more.
My question is this: which is best? My uses are strictly residential. I have faith in the dealer but not in my knowledge on the subject. Everyone on this board seems much more knowlegable than myself but I would like to "do it right the first time"..it's usually cheaper that way.

JiminMI

 

[bcarter]

Jim,

I bought a 2710 with a backhoe and the general philosophy I got from reading all the notes on this board regarding backhoes was to keep the backhoe fluid and the tractor fluid separate. Any contamination in the hoe's system is independent of the tractor and vice versa.

My $0.02...


Bill

 

[TomG]

The backhoe sounds like one that is run from a PTO, rather than the tractor's, hydraulic pump. What is being said sounds reasonable enough. It's true that most tractor pumps, on tractors large enough for the hoes, have enough capacity for the run a hoe. If the tractor pump has enough capacity, I don't suppose it makes much difference to the tractor whether it sits and runs its pump or its PTO. I haven't heard of condensation being a problem in hydraulic systems, but maybe somebody has.

Hydraulic capacity is stated as gallons per minute. The tractor has a pump gpm rating, and the hoe should have operating gmp and pressure recommendations. The dealer should be able to tell you what they are.
A hoe that is operated on less gmp operates slower than may be desired. A hoe that operates on less pressure has less power than speced.

In general, there is little reason to run a hoe from a PTO pump unless the hoe is not well matched to the tractor. A poorly matched hoe may have undesirable operating characteristics, and it would be a good idea to ensure that the tractor hydraulics will run the hoe adequately.

There is another issue. Backhoes are stressful on tractor frames--especially 3ph hoes. Hoes have been known to crack tractor frames in half. A little tractor that has ran a big hoe might not be the best buy unless you are confident in how the big hoe was used.

 

[hayden]

There's some info in this thread http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin...ement&Number=21727&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5

I think the difference between PTO pump and tractor hydraulics is splitting hairs provided the tractor has enough flow and pressure. Eliminating the PTO pump will same money.

As for 3PH hoes, I'd like to hear about cases where tractor damage has occured with a properly matched/mounted 3PH hoe. I agree that a 3PH makes it possible to attach hoes that are way too big for a tractor, and to attach them without first installing any required reinforcement hardware, and that this can lead to problems. But, overloading/abusing equipment will lead to failures. No surprises there.

If you are going to mount a 3PH hoe, mount one that's sized for the tractor (a Woods 7500 is sized for the 3010), and use the Kubota recommended hardware (Don't know what it is for the 3010, but you can find out by asking what has to be done for the tractor to mount a Kubota 4690, which is their 3PH hoe).

 

[Bird]

Bill, I know some folks give the possibility of hydraulic fluid contamination as a reason for using the PTO powered backhoe instead of the tractor hydraulics, but if you keep your quick couplers clean, i.e., wipe them off good if necessary before hooking them up, there's no reason for that to be a concern. Real farmers change hydraulic powered implements all the time without worrying about that.

Bird

 

[bcarter]

Bird,

I'm really not all that worried about contaminating either the tractor or the backhoe hydraulic fluid...I'm pretty meticulous when it comes to keeping things clean (although my wife might feel that the word "meticulous" isn't strong enough /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif).

When I was researching backhoes the general concensus was to use a PTO pump (for a variety of reasons)...cleanliness was the reason that came to mind quickly this morning when I responded (gee, maybe my wife is right... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif). The other posts here that mentioned the hydraulic requirements (flow and pressure) were the other major reasons cited in the posts I researched. The whole idea of a sealed, self-contained unit seemed better to me.

I know that the PTO pump route has worked well for me...and I'll second the posts above that mention using a sub-frame. I specifically got a Woods hoe because there was no sub-frame available for the Kubota hoe. Not that I'm all that tough on the equipment, but why not have the strongest arrangement possible? Right?



Bill

 

[Thomas]

Re: Backhoe..JiminMI&JimBinMI

After reading the post I look at the name below and just about fell out of my chair. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif
I stared and stared at the name,WHAT..Jim finally had enough of his NH and now wants to buy a L3010 FEL & backhoe?? /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I had many thoughts of will wonder never cease or maybe I should go out and buy a lottey ticket..what a day. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Than I notice no "B". /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif
Ahhh maybe someday it could happen,have my fingers cross for you Jim.

JiminMI&JimBinMI I guess I need to look more carefully or make my coffee stronger! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Thomas..NH /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[Bird]

Bill, I agree that the PTO powered hoe has some advantages, primarily if it's on a tractor without an adequate hydraulic flow capacity, like TomG mentioned. But I'd consider the possibility of hydraulic fluid contamination to be the least of the concerns.

Bird

 

[art]

Well the pump supplied by Woods is only 6gpm. The pump by Kubota is probably the same. We have been using the tractor hydraulics quite a bit when selling these outfits and have had good luck with both the tractor and the backhoe. I used to look at keeping the oils seperate but it doesn't seem to be a problem. Now about the neighbor who likes to borrow your tools?

 

[MChalkley]

JimInMi - You didn't say what backhoe you're getting but, in general, running it from the tractor's hydraulics shouldn't be any problem if they're anywhere near properly matched, as has been said. For example, I run a Bradco 609 (2,000 lbs) on my L4310HST regularly and it works great, despite the fact that the Bradco's specs call for 10-12 GPM, and the L4310 only has 8 GPM or so. Again, as has been said, keep the connectors clean and it's not a problem, but a lot less hassle.

As for a much cleaner approach to doing it than I've ever seen anybody else do, a hydraulics engineer helped me plumb the connections in such a way that even satisfied me. I posted a message on the old forum almost exactly a year ago (11/19/99) which has some details on it you might want to consider. Since there's no links to the old forum anymore (at least not that I can find), I'm reposting the old messages on my current "L4310 Enhancements" thread in the "Kubota Owning" discussion area in a few minutes, in case you want to see them.

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Greetings, after reading the part about a backhoe cracking a frame I am concerned. What would be the best new backhoe to purchase for a B2710 with a FEL, a woods 7500? I plan on having the backhoe mounted most of the year on the tractor and I want my tractor to last many years. Same question for the L3010 what backhoe for that tractor the woods 7500?

 

[JiminMI]

Again, I would like to thank all of you who are educating me. The hoe I was going to get is the Woods 7500, and as mentioned, requires 6GPM whereas the L3010 specs at 7GPM. I can assume that if anything, the hoe will be quicker than at 6GPM (probably splitting hairs). The hoe does have a sub-frame and the couplings will be close the joystick for the FEL.
Many thanks again,
JiminMI

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Cosmo:the woods 7500 is a fine choice for the 2710.I have had this unit on both my 2710 and now on my 2910 and it works very well.I would recommend the subframe mount set-up over the 3 pt one primarily because of strength and safety.The subframe is a superior system (in my opinion)because it distributes the stressful forces over a larger area of the tractor frame thus reducing potential damage.I believe this improves operator safety as well because the hoe is more securely attached to the tractor and less likely to "loosen up" (for lack of a better term).Despite the extra bulk of the subframe,I find it is a quick and easy system to take on and off the tractor with a little practice.My set-up uses the separate pto pump which works great,is neat and tidy and keeps the back hoe as a self contained unit which I prefer.As others have said however,I'm sure the direct to tractor hydraulic connection system works fine as well.Good luck with your decision and don't worry about cracking housings or breaking frames-a little common sense goes a long way and these hoes are designed by engineers who know what theyre doing,otherwise their companies wouldn't stay in business.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

As one who did bust some brackets, even being careful with a 3-point, I can attest to their weakness, strictly for nursery work. But that was with a 17 year old hoe design. Some of the new ones are much better. A frame mount is far better. (There I stopped and didn't get into a discussion of why my L35 backhoe frame is better than...oops)

As to fluid contamination, I've thought about adding a separate in line filter to the backhoe. Maybe helpful, maybe not, but the cost of that PTO pump would probably pay for even quicker hydraulic fluid/filter changes. None of the guys that use their hoes everyday seem to do anything about this, I haven't even seen anyone using an extra filter. Of course, nervous nellie that I am, I have 2 factory pre filters on my L35. Sure is fun watching something spin around in the filter that sticks out above the hood. I tell people it is the turbocharger when they ask.

I know...it's cruel

Del

 

[john4nh]

just a line or two about hyd. fluid I have owned a couple pieces of yellow equipment. Two case 580's, jd455 case 450. And I can say that on all of these there hyd. fluid was milky. What does this mean? I live in Houston with high humidity. But I have never seen any damage on the inside of cylinders when repairing leaks. Meaning rust. WE have never changed hyd. filters unless we felt a loss of power or just when we purchased a new (used) piece of equipment. The one 580 has been with us forover 22 years with no major repairs of any kind.. Original hyd. pump engine etc. New clutch and head gasket thats it.. There are several thousand hours on this machine.. The bottom line i wouldnt worry about cross contaimtation..

 

[JimBinMI]

Re: Backhoe..JiminMI&JimBinMI

Thomas,

Just read the "B" in my name as owner of the BEST tractor brand...or in your case "BLUE" owner! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

How dare JiminMI live in Michigan and own one of those orange things! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Have a BLUEtiful Thanksgiving all!

JimBinMI

 

[scruffy]

Re: Backhoe..JiminMI&JimBinMI

JimBinMi, I am sure all the Kubota owners will be V E R Y thankful that they never got stuck with an Orange Blooper! ;o) Me? I ain't got nuttin no more. ( Maybe next year. Have a nice ThanksGiving everyone, and don't be to down 'bout the election soap opera. It's the following four years to be down about!