Backhoe backhoe advice

[maddog2020]

I have a case ih farmall 45 compact tractor. I am wanting to put a backhoe on it. I am thinking of going with a woods bh90x. I was looking at the instalation manual online and it looks like it is a pain to take on and off. It appears that you have to unhook the three point arms. Is this correct? My buddy has a case ih bh1102 which I am told is the exact same unit as a rhino 85c. It goes on and off in about 15 minutes and there is not much of the subframe left on the tractor with it off. Most of the work I do with the tractor will be with the bh off so I dont want a big awkward subframe left on the tractor . I would greatly appreciate some advice from someone who owns one of these units or has experience with them. It is alot of money so I want to make the right decision.

 

[Grandad4]

With many tractors the 3 pt arms are exactly in the same place you need to attach the backhoe, so they have to come off. Mine's like that, and removing/attaching them is a simple 5 minute job, so it's not a big deal for me. Hopefully your Case IH 45 is equally easy.

I think there may be some BH models that don't have interference with the 3pt arms, but if that means a weaker, less compact backhoe attachment setup, I'll take a stronger design and allow an extra 5 minutes when necessary.

Here's my subframe, which is snugged right against the FEL subframe going to the rear axle. It's permanent and doesn't get in the way or reduce clearance so I notice. Actually, I figure it adds quite a bit of strength and protection to the underside of the tractor.

 

[Carl_NH]

You will want tight a 4 Point connection from the BH to tractor. The 4 point connection on the tractor will be tied into the overall frame. The BH attaches on these and the 4 point frame should tie in the rear axle and to the loader/front frame without stealing undercarriage clearance.

I know Bradco make a 4 point like this and I would think woods also. What you dont want is a subframe that is tough to install and robs ground clearance.

Many on here (me included) dont know about the Farmall series you have (I know the 1950's series as in C, M, H and super verisons of these) but not the new ones. I suspect they are Mahindra or similar rebadged as Famall's.

The other option instead of spendng $7K for a BH is to buy used mini excavator for $9-10K. That way you have a lot of options and can run the tractor and the hoe as needed - no changes.

 

[maddog2020]

You will want tight a 4 Point connection from the BH to tractor. The 4 point connection on the tractor will be tied into the overall frame. The BH attaches on these and the 4 point frame should tie in the rear axle and to the loader/front frame without stealing undercarriage clearance.

I know Bradco make a 4 point like this and I would think woods also. What you dont want is a subframe that is tough to install and robs ground clearance.

Many on here (me included) dont know about the Farmall series you have (I know the 1950's series as in C, M, H and super verisons of these) but not the new ones. I suspect they are Mahindra or similar rebadged as Famall's.

The other option instead of spendng $7K for a BH is to buy used mini excavator for $9-10K. That way you have a lot of options and can run the tractor and the hoe as needed - no changes.

The Farmall 45 and the New Holland TC45 are the exact same tractor. One is red and one is blue

 

[mjncad]

The other option instead of spendng $7K for a BH is to buy used mini excavator for $9-10K. That way you have a lot of options and can run the tractor and the hoe as needed - no changes.

Or if you plan to use a backhoe only few times over the course of a few years, I'd rent a mini-ex...which I've done three times in the past.

Mini-ex's are fun to operate and are useful to no end; but they can be expensive to fix, and an abused mini-ex could become a money pit.

 

[nickel plate]

The Farmall 45 and the New Holland TC45 are the exact same tractor. One is red and one is blue

Following what you say here, the TC45 has a 9.8 GPM hydraulic system which is enough to run the BH90-X. Woods does make a 4pt subframe that fits the TC45 so you should be good to go but do call Wood's tech people.
Ground clearance on my TC40S with a BH90-X 4pt subframe is 13" measured at a set of 4" frame rail brackets at about the instrument panel and the rails themselves clear around 14-1/2". At the 1" thick 4pt hook up area the clearance is 11" for about one running foot forward. The stock clearance of the front steering tie rod is 13" so I think the lessened 4pt BH frame clearance in this case is not signifigant.

 

[mikim]

I have a TC45 with the 80X woods BH and I am so glad I do. I do not remove my 3pt arms but do disconnect the sway bars. The subframe is fairly massive but I figure it just adds strength to the tractor frame. It has never gotten in the way of anything else I'm doing. It takes me about 20 minutes to remove or install it. I'll say this however....If the hoe were sitting such that I couldn't move it to line it up for connection it would be a problem for me I'm sure. I have it on a carrier I built with big casters and have it in my shop on concrete. Makes it so easy to roll it up to the back of the tractor and get it lined up. I built that carrier before the first time I took the hoe off - dealer put it on initially. I wouldn't want a stronger hoe either. I've scared myself a couple of times thinking I over torqued something while digging stumps. A stronger hoe might break the tractor. (with me at controls)

 

[dlauffenburger]

This post brings up an interesting question for me (the uninformed). I am looking at buying a new tractor (45-55 HP) with a FEL and Hoe, but was unaware of the interface issues with the 3 Point Hitch and Hoe. Do all of the factory Hoe's require the removal of the 3PH arms and installation of a subframe whenever switching. I have seen a couple of videos stating "easy install removal" of the hoe but none of them mentioned a conflict with the 3PH system.

I have seen a couple of aftermarket hoes that mount to the tractor using the 3PH system vice a sub frame, any thoughts on these systems?

Thanks for any guidance and/or info.

Dave

 

[dave1949]

This post brings up an interesting question for me (the uninformed). I am looking at buying a new tractor (45-55 HP) with a FEL and Hoe, but was unaware of the interface issues with the 3 Point Hitch and Hoe. Do all of the factory Hoe's require the removal of the 3PH arms and installation of a subframe whenever switching. I have seen a couple of videos stating "easy install removal" of the hoe but none of them mentioned a conflict with the 3PH system.

I have seen a couple of aftermarket hoes that mount to the tractor using the 3PH system vice a sub frame, any thoughts on these systems?

Thanks for any guidance and/or info.

Dave

The subframe types are thought to be less mechanical stress on the tractor. There has been some breakage reported for both styles.

My NH tc40 has the subframe type. It's a NH 758 hoe. Like mikim said, the mounting would be much easier with a carrier on casters, but it usually takes me ~30 minutes to mount mine from start to finish. The hoe weighs about 1700 pounds, so forget moving it by hand when it's off the tractor.

Storage of the NH subframe type can be a space eater because the c-channel frames that extend under the tractor stays with the hoe and that means it covers 4-5 feet of floor space just for that when it is unmounted.

The only clearance issues I have had is to make sure to tie up the hydraulic lines tight to the tractor. They like to snag stuff in the woods. I don't think any part of the subframe or hoe is lower than the front axle differential clearance.

Dave.

 

[Grandad4]

This post brings up an interesting question for me (the uninformed). I am looking at buying a new tractor (45-55 HP) with a FEL and Hoe, but was unaware of the interface issues with the 3 Point Hitch and Hoe. Do all of the factory Hoe's require the removal of the 3PH arms and installation of a subframe whenever switching. I have seen a couple of videos stating "easy install removal" of the hoe but none of them mentioned a conflict with the 3PH system.

I have seen a couple of aftermarket hoes that mount to the tractor using the 3PH system vice a sub frame, any thoughts on these systems?

Thanks for any guidance and/or info.

Dave

Here's a photo of my tractor setup that illustrates the problem. You can see the 3 point links that have an implement on them in this photo. You can also see the backhoe mounting brackets (that have 4 mounting points, 3 visible in this shot). Obviously, the backhoe fits in the same place on the tractor as a rear implement hooks up. I'd just ditto my earlier comment about removing the 3 point arms. It's not that big of a deal.

The backhoe mounting brackets are part of the backhoe subframe, which extends underneath the tractor (see photo in earler post). On this tractor, the subframe is permanently mounted to the tractor. Other backhoe designs have a removable subframe, which comes off when the backhoe is removed (see Dave1949's comment).

A subframe mount gives a much stronger support for the backhoe than would be possible using the 3 point links, and a well designed subframe limits how much stress is put on the tractor itself when the backhoe digs. There are many threads on TBN about 3 point backhoes... get a pint of your favorite beverage and enjoy some extensive reading on the subject. Generally, the 3 pt ones are OK for occasional or mild use and not the best for heavy work.

As for the "easy to install" thing, well that's a relative statement. Remember you'll be putting something on your tractor that probably weighs about 2,000 lbs., and it has to be secure so it's safe to use. You're going to go over it with the grease gun (mine has about 30 grease points!), and hook up the hydraulics. It's not difficult, but it does take a bit of time and practice. Interestingly, I've heard that the 3 point backhoes are more difficult to attach and remove than the subframe ones.

 

[nickel plate]

I have a TC45 with the 80X woods BH and I am so glad I do. I do not remove my 3pt arms but do disconnect the sway bars.

Do you completely remove the two swaybars or just tie them off?
If you do leave the 3-pt lift arms intact then is it a matter of being extra careful as to not hit the 3-pt lever?
What position do you leave the 3-pt arms in when the BH is attached?
I'm asking all of this becuase I have a very similar setup as you. TC-40 and a Woods BH90-x w/ hydraulic thumb.
BTW, I see that Woods is now offering a hydraulic thumb as an option on the BH80-X whereas before all you could get was the mechanical thumb.
Thanks mikim.

 

[dlauffenburger]

The subframe types are thought to be less mechanical stress on the tractor. There has been some breakage reported for both styles.

My NH tc40 has the subframe type. It's a NH 758 hoe. Like mikim said, the mounting would be much easier with a carrier on casters, but it usually takes me ~30 minutes to mount mine from start to finish. The hoe weighs about 1700 pounds, so forget moving it by hand when it's off the tractor.

Storage of the NH subframe type can be a space eater because the c-channel frames that extend under the tractor stays with the hoe and that means it covers 4-5 feet of floor space just for that when it is unmounted.

The only clearance issues I have had is to make sure to tie up the hydraulic lines tight to the tractor. They like to snag stuff in the woods. I don't think any part of the subframe or hoe is lower than the front axle differential clearance.

Dave.

Dave,

Thanks for the info.

Dave

 

[dlauffenburger]

Here's a photo of my tractor setup that illustrates the problem. You can see the 3 point links that have an implement on them in this photo. You can also see the backhoe mounting brackets (that have 4 mounting points, 3 visible in this shot). Obviously, the backhoe fits in the same place on the tractor as a rear implement hooks up. I'd just ditto my earlier comment about removing the 3 point arms. It's not that big of a deal.

The backhoe mounting brackets are part of the backhoe subframe, which extends underneath the tractor (see photo in earler post). On this tractor, the subframe is permanently mounted to the tractor. Other backhoe designs have a removable subframe, which comes off when the backhoe is removed (see Dave1949's comment).

A subframe mount gives a much stronger support for the backhoe than would be possible using the 3 point links, and a well designed subframe limits how much stress is put on the tractor itself when the backhoe digs. There are many threads on TBN about 3 point backhoes... get a pint of your favorite beverage and enjoy some extensive reading on the subject. Generally, the 3 pt ones are OK for occasional or mild use and not the best for heavy work.

As for the "easy to install" thing, well that's a relative statement. Remember you'll be putting something on your tractor that probably weighs about 2,000 lbs., and it has to be secure so it's safe to use. You're going to go over it with the grease gun (mine has about 30 grease points!), and hook up the hydraulics. It's not difficult, but it does take a bit of time and practice. Interestingly, I've heard that the 3 point backhoes are more difficult to attach and remove than the subframe ones.

Thank You for the pictures and the explanation. Your description cleared up my confusion, for some reason when i read the OP's string i was under the impression that all BH frames had to be removed in order to use the 3PH. Knowing that some of the BH units can be used bu just removing the 3PH arms makes alot more sense. And i agree removing the arms is not that big of a deal.

Thanks again for your response.

Dave

 

[bironacad]

This post brings up an interesting question for me (the uninformed). I am looking at buying a new tractor (45-55 HP) with a FEL and Hoe, but was unaware of the interface issues with the 3 Point Hitch and Hoe. Do all of the factory Hoe's require the removal of the 3PH arms and installation of a subframe whenever switching. I have seen a couple of videos stating "easy install removal" of the hoe but none of them mentioned a conflict with the 3PH system.

I have seen a couple of aftermarket hoes that mount to the tractor using the 3PH system vice a sub frame, any thoughts on these systems?

Thanks for any guidance and/or info.

Dave

I have the Woods BHX80 and was told the lift arms could stay on but after trying to make it work I just took them off. The removal is not a big deal ten minutes at most one bolt and two pins for each arm. Don't let that dissuade you from getting a backhoe. The mechanical thumb is also very handy.:thumbsup:

 

[mikim]

I'm going to ask y'all to be patient with me. I'm going to make a few posts here with pics and it might take me a bit. (I'm not real good at posting pics). Here is my hoe on it's pallet. Some guys here have built theirs from metal - I'm not a metal guy and I had the 2x12s inherited from Dad so I used them. I bought the 6 casters at TSC. You can see that when I back the tractor into the shop it's easy then to roll the hoe up to it to line it up and connect.

 

[mikim]

When I do my lining up I set the lift arms so they fit inside just above these hyd cylinders .....and YES you need to be extra careful NOT to bump or move the control that moves those arms while the hoe is on........pic 2 .....here you can see the lift arm at the tractor, to the left the small keeper bolt that holds the pin in, and to the left of it a hole in the hoe subframe that the pin is suppose to slide into during removal. Mine almost lines up which is why I leave my arms on. If you can do so easily I also recommend you remove the arms --- I am not able to do so ....easily. I did do a small modification to the pin so that if I need to I can get them out -- but I have to remove to rear tires to do so. Consequently -- I do what I do.

 

[mikim]

The orange tape are the 4 mounting points. 2 pins on the bottom that "catch" on lower hooks on subframe, and 2 bolts on top. I roll the hoe into position, hook up hyd, line up the lower hooks, then use the stabilator arms and bucket arm to move the hoe around to line up the bolts on top. Sometimes there's a bit of air in the system that makes the hoe jump during this process ---which makes my heart jump a bit too.

 

[mikim]

The subframe is the black part behind the step. And in the other pics. It's not in the way and actually acts a little like a protector from me hitting stuff under there. I used to have a skid plate under there and may make another that I'll just mount to the subframe. (the front tires are off getting replaced. after 10 years and a dozen plugs, including 1 double plug that stopped staying in, it was just time.)

 

[mikim]

Do you completely remove the two swaybars or just tie them off? Tie them off
If you do leave the 3-pt lift arms intact then is it a matter of being extra careful as to not hit the 3-pt lever? YES....YES....YES
What position do you leave the 3-pt arms in when the BH is attached? so that they fit above the hyd cylinders --see my other posts
I'm asking all of this becuase I have a very similar setup as you. TC-40 and a Woods BH90-x w/ hydraulic thumb.
BTW, I see that Woods is now offering a hydraulic thumb as an option on the BH80-X whereas before all you could get was the mechanical thumb.
Thanks mikim.

replied in line in red

 

[mikim]

This post brings up an interesting question for me (the uninformed). I am looking at buying a new tractor (45-55 HP) with a FEL and Hoe, but was unaware of the interface issues with the 3 Point Hitch and Hoe. Do all of the factory Hoe's require the removal of the 3PH arms and installation of a subframe whenever switching. I have seen a couple of videos stating "easy install removal" of the hoe but none of them mentioned a conflict with the 3PH system.

I have seen a couple of aftermarket hoes that mount to the tractor using the 3PH system vice a sub frame, any thoughts on these systems?

Thanks for any guidance and/or info.

Dave

Dave - do a search on this site for backhoe threads .... but be sure to have time on your hands....there's a LOT to read.:thumbsup: