Are all sub compacts essentially equal?

[Gittyup]

Some folks can't have a discussion without being rude and are best just added to the ignore list.

I quit....I never had one, but talking to you is like talking to an ex wife. From now on I will just say yes dear.

Whatever you say.

 

[GManBart]

I quit....I never had one, but talking to you is like talking to an ex wife. From now on I will just say yes dear.

Whatever you say.

Two posts ago it was fun, but now you're upset?

You looked at a 1 series months ago, bought a BX, and then looked at a Boomer 25 last week, and said it felt larger than the 1 series.

The facts are the 1 series and Boomer 25 are within an inch of being the same size, but we should all go off your months old memory of a "feeling" about something you didn't see in any reasonable proximity to the other machine? Yeah, that makes complete sense.

Memories and feelings don't change what the tape measure proves.

 

[Cherokee140]

Not upset, just talking to a brick wall.

Reminds me of the guy that says the BX25 and BX25D are the same.

 

[murphy1244]

Not upset, just talking to a brick wall.

Reminds me of the guy that says the BX25 and BX25D are the same.

Was that your exwife?

 

[GManBart]

Reminds me of the guy that says the BX25 and BX25D are the same.

Funny, nobody makes a BX25 that I'm aware of...they all have a D. Not sure how you missed that fact, but that's for another thread.

Some folks seem to be more interested in feelings than facts.

 

[94BULLITT]

Irrelevant questions. None of those change the fact that the 1 series is much larger than a BX, and essentially the same size as a Boomer 20/24/25.

Trying to suggest that a 1 series is a SCUT, and a Boomer 25 is a CUT is pretty silly, but go on beating the dead horse....it won't change what the tape measure reveals.

Since arbitrary decisions seem to agree with you, I think I'll make a counter; if it weighs under 1,800lbs, and has a two-range HST it's a SCUT.

The 1 series is not a larger tractor than a BX, it is the same frame size. The 3PH lift arms are longer on a 1 series so that is why it may be a little longer.

Dealers and other people agree that the Boomer 25 is not a SCUT.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/new-holland-buying-pricing/233637-new-holland-subcompacts.html

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/new-holland-buying-pricing/237259-boomer-25-a.html
You need to get out and look at one for yourself and then look at the BX or 1 series and a B series or a 2000 series. If you look at Boomer 25 you will see that everything about it is larger than a true SCUT.

 

[GManBart]

The 1 series is not a larger tractor than a BX, it is the same frame size. The 3PH lift arms are longer on a 1 series so that is why it may be a little longer.

Dealers and other people agree that the Boomer 25 is not a SCUT.

You need to get out and look at one for yourself and then look at the BX or 1 series and a B series or a 2000 series. If you look at Boomer 25 you will see that everything about it is larger than a true SCUT.

People can agree to anything, and still be wrong.

A BX and the 1 series are the same size, and it's all based upon some magically longer 3pt lift arms? Seriously, you're really going to make that claim? Okay.

Deere 1025R:
Weight (shipping): 1444 lbs [654 kg]
Wheelbase: 57.1 inches [145 cm]
Length: 87.6 inches [222 cm]
102.6 inches [260 cm] (with hitch and magic 3pt arms)
Width: 47.2 inches [119 cm] (r# tires) 47.3 (r$ tires)
Height (hood): 41.5 inches [105 cm]
Height (ROPS): 78.6 inches [199 cm]
Clearance (front axle): 12.3 inches [31 cm]
Rear axle: Flanged
Front tread: 32.2 inches [81 cm]
Rear tread: 35.2 inches [89 cm]


BX2660:
Weight: 1,389 lbs [630 kg]
Wheelbase: 55.1 inches [139 cm]
Length: 95.5 inches [242 cm]
Width: 44.5 inches [113 cm]
Height (ROPS): 70.4 inches [178 cm]
Clearance (front axle): 8.7 inches [22 cm]
Front tread: 36.6 inches [92 cm]
Rear tread: 32.2 inches [81 cm]

The 1 series is heavier, longer, taller, has a longer wheelbase, and is bigger in every way except rear tread....heck, it has 50% more ground clearance. Say what you want, but the two aren't the same size....magic lift arms or not. I do have to admit that I love how the fact that the 1 series is a full 10% longer becomes just "a little longer" when it suites you....it's almost cute.

I've seen all of the machines in question, in person, and they're all SCUTs. They weigh well under 2K pounds, have 2-range hydros, low limits on the 3pt and FELs, etc, etc, etc. They aren't all the exact same size, but they're all in the same ballpark. Much like the term "CUT" covers a broad range of machine sizes, there will be variation within the "SCUT" class. Trying to suggest that a 15-1700lb machine (LS and NH disagree on the shipping weights) is in the same category as something like your 4240 is just silly.

I'm pretty sure that if the FEL on my LS can lift it, it's still a SCUT, and a Boomer 25 wouldn't be a challenge.

Seriously, I can't fathom why you beat this poor, dead horse about how an inch here or there suddenly makes some tractors not SCUTs, or not "true SCUTs.". Who cares what title gets used? If somebody wants to buy one, they walk up to it, and if it seems big, they look at a different model...easy.

 

[94BULLITT]

Irrelevant questions. None of those change the fact that the 1 series is much larger than a BX, and essentially the same size as a Boomer 20/24/25.

Trying to suggest that a 1 series is a SCUT, and a Boomer 25 is a CUT is pretty silly, but go on beating the dead horse....it won't change what the tape measure reveals.

Since arbitrary decisions seem to agree with you, I think I'll make a counter; if it weighs under 1,800lbs, and has a two-range HST it's a SCUT.

People can agree to anything, and still be wrong.

A BX and the 1 series are the same size, and it's all based upon some magically longer 3pt lift arms? Seriously, you're really going to make that claim? Okay.

Deere 1025R:
Weight (shipping): 1444 lbs [654 kg]
Wheelbase: 57.1 inches [145 cm]
Length: 87.6 inches [222 cm]
102.6 inches [260 cm] (with hitch and magic 3pt arms)
Width: 47.2 inches [119 cm] (r# tires) 47.3 (r$ tires)
Height (hood): 41.5 inches [105 cm]
Height (ROPS): 78.6 inches [199 cm]
Clearance (front axle): 12.3 inches [31 cm] Wrong 7.7''
Rear axle: Flanged
Front tread: 32.2 inches [81 cm]
Rear tread: 35.2 inches [89 cm]


BX2660:
Weight: 1,389 lbs [630 kg]
Wheelbase: 55.1 inches [139 cm]
Length: 95.5 inches [242 cm]
Width: 44.5 inches [113 cm]
Height (ROPS): 70.4 inches [178 cm]
Clearance (front axle): 8.7 inches [22 cm]
Front tread: 36.6 inches [92 cm]
Rear tread: 32.2 inches [81 cm]

The 1 series is heavier, longer, taller, has a longer wheelbase, and is bigger in every way except rear tread....heck, it has 50% more ground clearance. Say what you want, but the two aren't the same size....magic lift arms or not. I do have to admit that I love how the fact that the 1 series is a full 10% longer becomes just "a little longer" when it suites you....it's almost cute.

The 1 series is
55lbs heavier
7.1'' longer
2.7'' wider
-8.6'' taller BX2370 87.2 to ROPS
front axle clearance 1025 7.7 bx 8.7. The BX has 1'' more of axle clearance
Front tread 4.4 narrower
Rear tread 3'' narrower

I really don't see any difference in size or weight. The both also have the same size tires.

I've seen all of the machines in question, in person, and they're all SCUTs. They weigh well under 2K pounds, have 2-range hydros, low limits on the 3pt and FELs, etc, etc, etc. They aren't all the exact same size, but they're all in the same ballpark. Much like the term "CUT" covers a broad range of machine sizes, there will be variation within the "SCUT" class. Trying to suggest that a 15-1700lb machine (LS and NH disagree on the shipping weights) is in the same category as something like your 4240 is just silly.

Kubota and John Deere are probably the top 2 brands in the US. They call the BX and 1 series subcompact tractors. Kubota makes a B series and John Deere makes a 2000 series. These are the next step up from a sub compact tractor. They are also the same size as a Boomer 25.

I'm pretty sure that if the FEL on my LS can lift it, it's still a SCUT, and a Boomer 25 wouldn't be a challenge.

Seriously, I can't fathom why you beat this poor, dead horse about how an inch here or there suddenly makes some tractors not SCUTs, or not "true SCUTs.". Who cares what title gets used? If somebody wants to buy one, they walk up to it, and if it seems big, they look at a different model...easy.

I don't see why you can't get it. Apparently you have never looked at the tractors in question closely. I think it is misleading if a manufacturer calls a tractor a SCUT that is not a SCUT. If some one walks in dealer A and says I want to look at a SCUT. The dealer shows them what is traditionally known as a SCUT. Then the person goes to dealer B and says I want to look at a SCUT. The dealer shows them a tractor that is larger than a SCUT. The person is going to go home and look at the brochures and see tractor B will lift more on the loader and 3PH so they may buy it because of that. If dealer A would have know the person would be willing to go up to the next largest size tractor they could have showed it to them and possible made the sale and the person may like dealer A's tractor better than the one they ended up with.

 

[Code54]

Maybe the LSU AG Center can lay this to rest:

Subcompact tractor is a new category between garden tractors and compact utility tractors that is not defined by ASAE but offered by some manufacturers. Subcompact tractors are about the size (power and dimensions) of garden tractors but are built like compact utility tractors with water-cooled diesel engines, power- take-off (PTO), three-point hitch, remote hydraulics and heavy construction.

John Deere said the following:

John Deere offers four model series of compact utility tractors to meet the varying needs of customers: 1 Series sub-compact utility tractors (up to 25 hp); 2 Series compact utility tractors (24 to 31 hp); 3000 Series compact utility tractors (32 to 43 hp); and 4000 Series compact utility tractors (41 to 66 hp).
Example:
If you hit compare on the Deere site for the 1025R they compare their machine to:
Cub Cadet Sc2400
Kubota BX2360 HST
Kubota BX2660 HST
Massey Ferguson GC2400
Massey Ferguson GC2600
New Holland Boomer 1020
New Holland Boomer 1025

Kubota (From their website)
Start with the strength and versatility of a compact utility tractor. Blend them with the agile handling of 4WD and the feel of a garden tractor. Add new upgraded features, then reinforce the end product with incomparable reliability, and you've got the Kubota BX-Series.

The Oxford Dictionary
sub·com·pact / səbˈkämpakt/
• n. a motor vehicle that is smaller than a compact.

So I think we can see there is no definition or standard out there for these tractors so people can really call them what they like. There does not seem to be one standard anywhere that I could I locate. So it looks like everyone is right (or wrong depending if you are a glass half full or empty type)

 

[GManBart]

I don't see why you can't get it. Apparently you have never looked at the tractors in question closely. I think it is misleading if a manufacturer calls a tractor a SCUT that is not a SCUT. If some one walks in dealer A and says I want to look at a SCUT. The dealer shows them what is traditionally known as a SCUT. Then the person goes to dealer B and says I want to look at a SCUT. The dealer shows them a tractor that is larger than a SCUT. The person is going to go home and look at the brochures and see tractor B will lift more on the loader and 3PH so they may buy it because of that. If dealer A would have know the person would be willing to go up to the next largest size tractor they could have showed it to them and possible made the sale and the person may like dealer A's tractor better than the one they ended up with.

Wait, so now the argument is that I should look really closely at the machines, because it takes that much effort to determine which is larger? If it's that hard to tell the difference, there isn't enough difference to make one a SCUT, and one a CUT. I've seen all of them in person, and while they aren't identical in size, they're all SCUTS in my opinion. There is no such thing as a 1,600lb "true" CUT (LS says the J2023/Boomer 24) weighs 1,565lbs. If it weighs well under 2K and has a 2-range hydro, it's a SCUT...if I can lift it on my FEL, it's definitely a SCUT.

So what you're also saying is that customers are stupid? If they look at A, and look at B, and can't see that one is a SCUT, and one is a CUT, who's at fault? If they look at the brochure, and like the increased capabilities of B, regardless of what category, you as the authority on tractor naming convention has decreed it should be, where is the problem if it didn't look too big for them? Nobody was misled...they looked at the machines, looked at the brochures, and could compare dimensions, specs, AND balance that with their own observations. They got to choose whichever machine met their needs. If they aren't smart enough to do any research, or visit more than one brand to check the machines out in person, that's their own fault, and not the fact that one company calls a tractor of X size a SCUT, and another calls it a CUT.

There is a size range within all the tractor categories commonly talked about. The larger SCUTs are close to the smallest CUTS, and the largest CUTs are close to the smallest Utility machines. There are no guidelines defining any of these categories, so all you're doing is complaining that your favorite brand might be losing sales to other brands because they market their machines differently.

You still haven't addressed how a 1,700lb Boomer 25 (LS says it's under 1,565lbs) could be in the same category of machine as your L4240 which weighs more than twice as much? One is a toy in comparison to the other....probably a sign they aren't in the same category.