Anyone else waiting to see if tractors without the EPA stuff are coming?

[rScotty]

I’ll hold you to that. (manufacturing returning to the USA) I think it will come back. Not to the degree of 1900-1960, but recent changes, popular with American company owners, are pursuing a new future in manufacturing.

I hope you are right. For one thing, the world may never see manufacturing like we had in the 1900 to 1960 years. Back then we had a surplus of skilled tradesman leaving their trades for manufacturing jobs. Today we don't have enough tradesman or jobs either - and both have long lead times.

Will the rest of the world be willing to just sit around and wait while we catch up?
What about our aging population not producing enough kids, let alone educating them?
We aren't as bad off there as other countries we must not name, but we're on the wrong side of that population curve thing, too.

Does anyone else think these things like education and manufacturing have an impact on whether we see EPA stuff staying on our tractors? Maybe I'm alone or flat wrong about that. It's just that I see any changes in the "EPA stuff" as being more about manufacturing having the the ability to change, rather than the simpler question of political policy.

rScotty

 

[Paystar]

I would love to see it, but I doubt they will get rid of DPF's and SCR. If anything you will just see the upcoming 2027 regs everyone is fearing get ruled out.

Manufacturers won't want to get rid of the current emissions equipment....it is a cash cow for them. They get to have trucks and machines in the shop every day, selling parts and service, LOL

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

It would only be for 4 years, no manufacturer is going to retool/redesign knowing after the next election it all has to go back

 

[Hay Dude]

I’d doubt you’ll see DPF/DEF removed, but I’m hoping they pause before the 2027 regs hit. Those regs will cost too much for the typical farmer, trucker, etc to be able to handle.
All those regs will work in favor of huge corporations. Once they are in control, you’ll pay THEIR prices. And I guarantee you you’ll miss the low prices offered by your local, smaller operators.
All these overly burdensome regulations favor the globalists and large corporations. We need to go back to a time when a small operator with a dream can build a business.
That’s what makes America great.

 

[BubbaSam]

I’m not holding my breath that the rules get relaxed to start with but given the chance my vote is manufacturers immediately ditch the emissions equipment.

All I can say is.... DITTO! The emissions are the one reason I haven't bought a newer tractor. Fingers crossed and as they say "If the Lord's a willn' and the creek don't rise!"

 

[BubbaSam]

It would only be for 4 years, no manufacturer is going to retool/redesign knowing after the next election it all has to go back

Doesn't it REALLY depend on who's in for the following years?

 

[Calgaryglenn]

Obviously a lot has changed Government wise in the USA

I was in the market for a new tractor (I have a 2015 Kioti 6010 now that I like) but wanted to step up to a bigger tractor

Long story short I’m waiting to see if any expected EPA announcements on tractor exhaust deregulation is coming

I heard it is very soon for trucks

You never want to say never, but there is zero chance that pre emission control tractors (or tucks) are coming back. All engine manufactures base their design platforms on a world wide market and there are over 7.6 BILLION people in the world who live outside of the US who are not effected by by this government. That's a big market!
Source: 36 years as a manufactures rep in the AG industry.

 

[Joe Batt]

Yes, you can turn off DEF/DPF equipment with a laptop. EGR’s require a physical block. IMO, if standards are rolled back, we should be able to shut it off ourselves.

That would be fine if you kept the exhaust on your property, but you are polluting a shared resource. Electric is the only motor type that I know that doesn't pollute a shared resource when it is run. We don't have batteries (or equivalents like fuel cells) working well enough for tractors.

 

[Joe Batt]

The EPA is rolling back some emission standards, was just announced. If the official government policy at the time of purchase is "x", then you can't be punished later for adhearing to policy "x".

Get those deletes now boys...

They are rolling back 2027 standards. The equipment is still in the design phase.

 

[Joe Batt]

Makes you wonder what truck manufacturers, if anything, have to look forward to?
Could be a a real boost to the US manufacturing economy.
I like clean air, but not at the cost of diesel engine reliability. I’m trying to make a living here.
Wonder what todays high efficiency, high PSI injectors with computerized timing would run in terms of exhaust compared to 1990’s engines? Maybe they’d be clean enough to be acceptable?
The after treatment systems have been somewhat perfected. Tim to get rid of the engine issues associated with EGR.

The EPA doesn't require EGR. The EPA puts requirements on NOx emissions. EGR was the only way we have figured out how to accomplish the it. NOx is produced with Nitrogen and Oxygen in a high pressure, high temperature environment (combustion chamber). EGR reduces the amount of oxygen in the combustion, avoiding creating as much NOx. The EGR is is only used to decrease the Oxygen in the cylinder; without it, the diesel engines produce too much NOx.

 

[arrow]

I hope you are right. For one thing, the world may never see manufacturing like we had in the 1900 to 1960 years. Back then we had a surplus of skilled tradesman leaving their trades for manufacturing jobs. Today we don't have enough tradesman or jobs either - and both have long lead times.

Will the rest of the world be willing to just sit around and wait while we catch up?
What about our aging population not producing enough kids, let alone educating them?
We aren't as bad off there as other countries we must not name, but we're on the wrong side of that population curve thing, too.

Does anyone else think these things like education and manufacturing have an impact on whether we see EPA stuff staying on our tractors? Maybe I'm alone or flat wrong about that. It's just that I see any changes in the "EPA stuff" as being more about manufacturing having the the ability to change, rather than the simpler question of political policy.

rScotty

So here’s the problem concerning your first paragraph..every “next” aspect of this country will start with our kids. The problem as I see it, we are teaching kids with the same educational architecture as we did from 1865.
It is that which needs to change.
No kid needs more than a comprehensive education beyond the 8th grade. After that, we should start concentrating on the kid rather than the masses who happen to defer to the current educational methodology.
Each of us are “wired” for certain propensities.
We usually find these by accident rather than investigation.
We should start celebrating kids for their individual strengths rather than the continuation of denigrating their individual weaknesses.
Until we stop with the grade school, middle school, high school, college sequence, we are simply doomed to repeat the past.
It is “strengths” that are needed to be highlighted at an early age to give our society hope, aspiration and security of mind, body and spirit.
We do it with sports. What’s wrong with doing it in education?

 

[MHarryE]

Okay, USA backs off to zero regs - makes US diesels unsalable in most of the world including most of the USA as 17 states have tougher regulations than federal. Where else can you sell? Most developed countries have strict offroad emissions - but you can sell dirty tractors in Australia although they have tough on-highway, no controls on off-highway.

 

[YLee Kioti]

Been following TK's Garage on this topic.
EPA has presented many changes to Congress for permanent changes, that will make it difficult/impossible to reverse by succeeding administrations.
TK's Garage
I'd really love to stop burning a gallon of fuel on regen, right? of course..!

 

[sunandsand]

I have to smile about jScotty's Sputnik reference.

I was in 7th grade when Sputnik went up. The head of the local board of education went stomping around the junior HS and blamed US - personally - a bunch of 7th grade kids - it was all OUR fault! - because Russia and them dirty commies had beaten us into space.

And I do agree that our educational system needs a top to bottom overhaul. Over the years, I've taught in a number of trade schools and in some business schools (junior colleges) and worked with several colleges and universities in the area. (I'm the Economic Development Director for our area.) What I find that if it isn't THEIR idea and it didn't happen on THEIR campus, it doesn't exist. They are incredibly insular and do. not. listen. or even acknowledge the "outside" world.

They are also incredibly bigoted against anyone who works with their hands for ANYTHING. I got into a "discussion" with one such "educator" on exactly this topic. Airline pilot? Trades. Brain surgeon? Trades. and so on.

When the discussion was over, I watched this "educator" drive off in a rusty buy-here-pay-here Pinto, secure and smug in her belief that there is virtue in poverty. We should all admire such role models . . . /sarcasm off.

Best Regards,
Mike/Florida

 

[charlessenf]

I’m waiting to see if any expected EPA announcements on tractor exhaust deregulation is coming I heard it is very soon for trucks

Ah! For some it would seem, increased air pollution is seen a silver lining . . . It takes, as we've long said, "all kinds."

 

[rScotty]

I have to smile about jScotty's Sputnik reference.

I was in 7th grade when Sputnik went up. The head of the local board of education went stomping around the junior HS and blamed US - personally - a bunch of 7th grade kids - it was all OUR fault! - because Russia and them dirty commies had beaten us into space.

And I do agree that our educational system needs a top to bottom overhaul. Over the years, I've taught in a number of trade schools and in some business schools (junior colleges) and worked with several colleges and universities in the area. (I'm the Economic Development Director for our area.) What I find that if it isn't THEIR idea and it didn't happen on THEIR campus, it doesn't exist. They are incredibly insular and do. not. listen. or even acknowledge the "outside" world.

They are also incredibly bigoted against anyone who works with their hands for ANYTHING. I got into a "discussion" with one such "educator" on exactly this topic. Airline pilot? Trades. Brain surgeon? Trades. and so on.

When the discussion was over, I watched this "educator" drive off in a rusty buy-here-pay-here Pinto, secure and smug in her belief that there is virtue in poverty. We should all admire such role models . . . /sarcasm off.

Best Regards,
Mike/Florida

It may be asking the impossible to get educational institutions to change on their own. Change may have to come from the needs of society.

Back in the early 20th century a manufacturing society took the collision of pioneering "do it yourself" philosophy, in a country with more resources than people, and aided by a financial depression followed by wars. I doubt we have or even want to have that combination happening today.
rScotty

 

[Elviscaretaker]

From another thread; Deutz makes 75HP tractors this way:
"Tier 4 emissions compliant engine with “No Maintenance” emissions system: No SCR, No DPF"
source: 5D Keyline - Deutz-Fahr America
If Deutz can do it, why can't MF, JD, and others?

I can only speak for my 110hp Deutz with DPF. I did the delete and they made it very easy. I did not need to do anything else. During covid there were dpf system issues but no replacement parts, so they released factory software to delete it. (also stated it wouldn't harm anything) This is what is used on them now. Also, if you have a higher HP machine of theirs, you do have particulate filters in the exhaust you have to deal with. At the time, I could have upped my HP by 50%. Didn't feel the need for that as mine is a geared.

 

[deezler]

This whole conversation seems pretty crazy to me.

The only part right about Kamala's slogan "we're not going back" is perhaps for well proven emissions control solutions. Diesel particulate filters and their periodic required regenerations works perfectly fine as an effective technical solution. Like seriously.

If your tractor or truck has an issue, it simply wasn't engineered or validated well enough. Because the vast, vast majority of all diesel engines/vehicles fitted with a DPF in the last 15 years have been running perfectly fine. And in the meantime, an incredible amount of fine particulate matter has been captured and converted.

I drove behind a nice old 12-valve cummins pickup the other day, and it reeked. Makes you think about the amount of PM2.5 that is going into the air and your lungs, and the proven deleterious effects it has upon human health and lifespan.

As far as regulation goes, I would personally be fine with staying right here where we are for perpetuity, but rolling anything back is not happening.

 

[rvds]

There’s plenty of ways to get cancer. Like smoking, overconsumption of alcohol, eating too much processed food, being 50lbs overweight, smoking a suitcase full of weed every month….

Yet those are all perfectly legal. So why the hell should my equipment have to be near ZERO emissions, but people can voluntarily give themselves cancer through many other legal means?

How about some balance here? Howcome every piece of equipment I buy with a diesel engine over 25 frickin HP has to have $5,000 + of emissions crap piled on it, which BTW, also breaks later and must be repaired at even more cost, not to mention lower reliability?

Then we have to listen to virtue signalers, who don’t use equipment to farm, mine, saw, construct, etc. spew their garbage about “cancer” caused by us.

This has gone far enough. Air quality if fine and has been cleaned up considerably. People need to start being personally responsible and stop making anyone who uses machinery for a living foot the bill for their virtue signaling causes. People like me who run equipment are tired of the bullseye being on us. We’ve done a LOT to help clean up the air.

I don’t want rolling coal or dirty air either, just some mentally stable balance in the way we go about regulations on people and the way they make a living.

Emissions regulations are for 100% of the population, the other things you listed affect individuals. You have only to look at photos taken a few weeks into the Pandemic compared to prior to realize that smog from fossil fuels is still a big deal.

 

[Hoho223]

From reading the comments about the question I’m afraid that these folks would also prefer to go back to leaded gas, no catalytics, carburated engines and 8 miles to the gallon. Ah…the good old days. Makes my eyes water just thinking about it.