any used John Deere advice?

[gonyr]

I am looking to upgrade from a 10-12 year old 18 hp craftsman tractor with a 44" deck that never mowed all that great to begin with. I'd like a larger mower deck just to get done more quickly. I have about 1.5 acres with nothing real major in the way of hills. I would estimate it's about 75% completely open lawn, with the rest having some scattered trees. Mostly I'm looking for a quality machine that will last for a minimum of 10 years or so without major maintenance headaches. The older John Deere tractors seem like a much heavier duty, quality build than anything I could get new for the same price. My local JD dealer has a few used tractors that I'm interested in, but I'm not sure if they are a good deal or not. I haven't have chance to get much more than a cursory look at them yet, but they are:

#1 is a 1996 345 with a 54" deck and about 900-1000 hours, seems to be in basically good shape, he wants $3000.

#2 is a 425 (year and hours unknown right now) with a 54" deck that seems ok, but definitely a bit more beat up than #1. His price is $3500.

#3 is a 1996 445 with a 60" deck (hours unknown) in very good shape. He's asking $5000.

Right now I'm leaning toward #1. Number 3 is probably out my price range at this point, and is probably too large anyway. Does anyone have any advice as to what to check out or look for on these tractors? How about any pricing or negotiating info or hints? Also, how do these older machines compare to a new John Deere in the same price range (like an X320 or X340)? Thanks for your help.

 

[jcmseven]

I would really try talking to #3 to see if you could work something out. The first machine is a good one and the second sounds OK, but the third one is definitely worth the extra money. I know when things are tight, they are tight, but you would likely save that much money in upkeep down the road. It is not too big a machine. A good 445 will hold value quite well and is worth a lot more, because it is a lot more tractor. Honestly, beg, plead do whatever you need to, but try your best to get the 445 if you can, among the three options you mention. Personally, I think the other two are OVERpriced for the number of hours. They are great machines for sure, I just don't like the higher hours.

John M

 

[MT372HERE]

Having lots of experience in all 3 machines, Ill see if I can help you.

345- Good tractor, but it is a Vertical shaft, water cooled Kawsaki. It is not the best design, but it works. 1000 hours is alot for this tractor. Usually used on small lots, they are typically low hours.

The 425 is a Horizontal Shaft, Liquid Cooled KAwsaki V-twin. IT is a much better engine. It is carbureted, has a Tuff Torq rear end, which is the same one used in the 445, and the larger Compact tractors.
It has Hydraulic Lift for the deck, and the capacity for 3 point hitch, and a Front loader. There was a problem early in the run of the 425's where they used a plastic camshaft gear, that tended to fail around 600 hours. I beleive it wasnt fixed for good on new tractors until 1996. If it was built before 1996, Id ask if it has the new sty le steel cam or if it has been replaced. This tractor should NOT burn oil with less than 1200 hours. The gauges should all work as well as the lights.
The tractor had 23X12X12 rear tires, factory.
Deck is Shaft driven by the transmission, the gear case should be quiet, but these decks by their nature were somewhat loud, but some of the heaviest made by Deere.

The 445 is identical to the 425, except the Kawasaki is 22hp, and Electronically Fuel Injected. IT had larger 26X12X12 rear tires, and larger fronts than the 425. IT also came standard with 4 hydraulic couplers under the left foot rest. The 60" deck is a real acre taker.

The Hydro's on the 425/445/455 were just about buuletproof. They were tough as nails!

I owned a 445 with 1400 hours on it, and the hydro was still quiet, and it even powered a 40 loader without ANY problem. Used no oil, and worked like a champ with the 54" deck.

ALL 445's came with the Steel cam gear in all years.

Like I said, if it burns ANY oil pass on it. IT has been run with a loose or clogged filter or run low on oil...not worth it.

I currently have a 1988 JD 316 I restored back to like new, and it has a 48" deck, and 1400 hours on it, and it gives me no trouble.

If you can find a 332, or 430, they were older models, and had Yanmar Diesels.

Tommy-

 

[bontai_Joe]

It's not on your list, but You can get a really cherry Deere 214 or 216 with a 48" deck used for around $1000-1200. It will be an older machine from the early 1980's, but parts are readily available. A newer 200 series would also be a good choice and can be found in nice condition for under $2500. For a 1 1/2 acre lawn, I wouldn't think you need to get into the 400 series machines. Sure they are fantastic machines, but overkill for just cutting grass for your stated 10 year period. However if you are also gonna be tilling, and doing large snow removal, then the 300 and 400 series would be better choices. Just keep in the back of your mind that attachments for the large tractors cost more money, but do larger jobs faster.

 

[JohnSinVA]

There was a problem early in the run of the 425's where they used a plastic camshaft gear, that tended to fail around 600 hours. I beleive it wasnt fixed for good on new tractors until 1996. If it was built before 1996, Id ask if it has the new sty le steel cam or if it has been replaced.

The 445 is identical to the 425, except the Kawasaki is 22hp, and Electronically Fuel Injected. IT had larger 26X12X12 rear tires, and larger fronts than the 425. IT also came standard with 4 hydraulic couplers under the left foot rest. The 60" deck is a real acre taker.

The Hydro's on the 425/445/455 were just about buuletproof. They were tough as nails!

I owned a 445 with 1400 hours on it, and the hydro was still quiet, and it even powered a 40 loader without ANY problem. Used no oil, and worked like a champ with the 54" deck.

ALL 445's came with the Steel cam gear in all years.

Tommy-

The plastic cam gear issue wasn't resolved fully until model year 1999. In this year they also changed the striping on the side panels from black/yellow with black block lettering to mostly yellow with black outline lettering. To my knowledge, and from what JD themselves told me when I wrote them concerning the plastic cam gear, the fuel delivery system used has no bearing on the cam gear. The engine in question is still the FD620D, which used plastic cam gears until, IIRC, mid 1998. For the sake of full disclosure, my tractor is a '98 445, with an engine manufacture date of July 1997. When I asked JD about the cam gear I indicated my machine as a '98 445. There has been extensive discussion of the plastic cam gear issue at the weekend freedom machines site.

Regarding the 425 and 445 in question, the serial numbers should confer the date of manufacture, if they are still visible/readable. All the 4x5 series tractors were equipped with hour meters so there is really no reason for the hours of the machines to be unknown, unless the meters were broken/disconnected/replaced. I would assume the worst about the 425 and look at it as a '93 with high (1200+) hours. The 445 in good shape would be worth considering, but you should be able to get it for less, especially with hours "unknown". Who knows if it looks good because it was well kept, or because it has fresh paint and body panels? Are there any other accessories with the 445, like 3 point hitch or front quick hitch, or rear PTO? The 60" deck is a real beast (weighs as much as a beast too, install and removal are something you should keep to a minimum with that one).

I wouldn't even consider the 345 at any more than 1800. Typical hours for that machine should be roughly half what they are. My brother recently bought a 335 (the air cooled twin of the 345) with ~350 hours for $2500. You can do better.

 

[gonyr]

Thanks everyone for your quick responses. A little more info that may help clear things up:

The reason the hours and year are unknown for the 425 and 445 is that the dealer has two nearby lots, and those two machines are at the other one. I'm really just working off the pictures and limited info that the guy at the closer location had about those. The 345 I looked at in person, but was in a hurry at the time, and only had about 5 minutes. I'm going to try to get back over this weekend for a better look.

As far as the prices go, I'm in a suburban area in New York state. I'm not sure, but I tend to assume that things tend to be more expensive in the northeast than elsewhere. I guess I need to widen my search area a little more beyond just the closest dealer.

Resale value down the line isn't really a concern at all. If the tractor keeps working reliably and doing a good job, I'll keep it forever. I don't see any need to get the latest thing. I've been nursing the Craftsman along for almost 10 years now, and I'm mainly looking for something that will get my mowing done faster and do a nicer job of it. Deere is my 1st choice because I know they can last forever. My father still mows and plows with a garden tractor that's older than me (it's a 1967 JD 110, I think).

Tilling isn't a major concern - at most I would need to till a garden that's about 300 - 400 square feet, and probably do about the same amount for my neighbor. Same thing with snow removal - my driveway is less than 100 feet long and is totally flat. Except for the handful of times each year that we get more than 6 inches or so, I usually don't even bother to shovel.

The general consensus that I see so far is that the 345 is overpriced based on the hours. That's just the type of advice I'm looking for. I also agree that the 425 and 445 are probably overkill for what I need. I listed them because they were local and more or less in my price range. So it seems that none of these are really a great choice. That's OK, I'm not in any hurry. Any further advice on what to look for with these particular tractors or how to evaluate used tractors in general? I'm not super mechanically inclined, but I'm OK with basic maintenance type tasks (oil changes, etc.)

Thanks again for your help.

 

[bontai_Joe]

Let's see what would I look for in a used Deere? Since I'm partial to the old Kohler "K" series motors, I already own a Deere 210 from the late 1970's and a 1978 Deere 316 with a Kohler engine and a 1986 Onan powered 316 with a new engine. If I was in your situation, I'd probably look for a 4-6 year old Deere 200 series or 300 series, and although the older 318 is a LEGENDARY machine, most of the Onans in them are at the end of their design life, parts are expensive and not so easy to find, and the motor has been out of production for a few years now, so the risk of having to buy a $1500-2000 engine to repower it in the next 10 years is higher than my comfort level (I had to repower the '86 already but I got the tractor fairly cheap). You have read above of the problems with some Kawasaki engines with their plastic cam gear (what in the world were they thinking??!!) so I would be careful there to avoid the bad years.

Other brand used machines you might want to consider are the Ingersol/Case 4000 series garden tractors, Cub Cadet 2500 and 3000 series, the Wheelhorse classic 300 series, and Simplicity garden tractors.

 

[jcmseven]

I really don't think you should sell yourself short on your tractor. While I am not recommending that you purchase one of these machines specifically, I do think that you should consider the 445, or one like it. If that machine is in good shape, that is actually a good price on a solid long lasting machine. You might not realize what you could and would use the machine for until you had it. A 300 (now 500) series machine would last you a lifetime if it were new, but the one you are looking into is not new. This time of year and into fall, there likely are some good machines coming into dealers, so keep your eyes peeled. I would definitely take a good look at the 445 you mention, though.

John M

 

[Lindblom Lawn Care]

Does your dealer have anything in the LX 200 series? Those a bit newer and might be more suited to your needs. Might even be cheaper than the 3 you have listed. Something with a 46 or 48 inch deck and possibly a tiller and blade.

 

[Fordlords]

Looking at those used prices.... GARSH!!! I'd go right to my Cub Cadet dealer and get a brand new 2544 with 21 HP Kohler Command twin and shaft drive to heavy hydro for $3399 or the 2542 for $2999. Both come with 3 year bumper to bumper warranty.

Just about all the older pre-1990 JD garden tractors are great except the 317 if it has its original KT17 Kohler. But as stated in other post many of the OEM engines for these tractors are no longer produced leaving you to rebuild or use a retrofit engine- still worth it if you obtain the tractor cheap enough. Can't go wrong with a Kohler K series single, as the engine block is solid cast iron it can be rebuilt multiple times.

That Kawasaki is the first engine with plastic (nylon) timing gear that I've heard of having problems. Nylon cam gears are not uncommon on many of the newer OHV small engines from most makers, and I have not heard of any problems other than that Kwacker. They are used to make the engines quieter, and have been used on OHV/pushrod car engines for decades including the legendary Buick 3.8 V6.

-Fordlords-