Another Win For GM's HD's

[Paystar]

ROAD TEST: King of the hills

 

[DeereMann]

:stirthepot:

 

[aczlan]

Good for them if the specs were truly the same, but I will be suspicious until they get around to releasing the exact specs on these trucks.
They said "similarly spec’d" trucks, but if the GMC had 4.10 gears while the Ford and Dodge had 3.73 or 3.55 gears it would be easy for the GMC to "pull away" from the Ford and Dodge...
Sent the editor an email asking what the specs were.

Aaron Z

 

[thorholt]

That Allison is a excellent transmission, Too bad you have to put up with the rest of the truck to get it

 

[roadhunter]

That Allison is a excellent transmission, Too bad you have to put up with the rest of the truck to get it

Exactly.

 

[Paystar]

Yes, I'd still like to have a Superduty with a Cummins motor and Allison trans.

But I highly doubt Ford will ever get me back.

 

[Ken45101]

That Allison is a excellent transmission, Too bad you have to put up with the rest of the truck to get it

Hmmmm. I have only had to have a vehicle towed three times in 50 years. TWO times were the only Ford that I ever owned (F250). Both were well known (to the service department) problems.

 

[dodge man]

The test is a joke. They used the 250 version of the truck since that was the version they knew GM would win. Take the same trucks and get the top dog version of the Ford and the Ram and see what happens with a 20,000 lb load behind them. These tests always have a known outcome ahead of time.

 

[handirifle]

Good for them if the specs were truly the same, but I will be suspicious until they get around to releasing the exact specs on these trucks.
They said "similarly spec’d" trucks, but if the GMC had 4.10 gears while the Ford and Dodge had 3.73 or 3.55 gears it would be easy for the GMC to "pull away" from the Ford and Dodge...
Sent the editor an email asking what the specs were.

Aaron Z

Unless that truck was modified for that test, and unless GM has changed their policy, the 2500HD Diesel is ONLY available with 3.73 gears. There are (or at least were) no other gears available.

If you want to test "identical" vehicles, then test 3 Fords or 3 Dodges etc, cause that's the ONLY way they will ever be identical. Even with the same axle ratio, are the lower tranny gear ratios identical? I seriously doubt it. In addition, there's tunes the mfg's work with to broaden power curves etc.

The programming of the Allison TCM (transmission control module) might have been enhanced to compliment the new tune GM has given the 2015's. An article in Diesel World states that due to improved cooling for the engine, they were able to modify their tune for the engine, and provide broader power. The numbers are the same, but if the engine hits peak torque of 765 (I believe) at 1600 rpm, it MIGHT not fall off till say 2200 or 2300 or maybe higher. That would be a HUGE advantage.

In addition, the variable geometry turbo might come on quicker as well. There are SOOOOO many variables in a test like this the truck will NEVER be identical, unless they are made by the same company. Even then I have seen high output engines that were factory identical, and one produces 20 more HP than the other.

For a 2500 (or 250) 3.55 gears would not seem to bright from a marketing stand point, for a diesel truck, that someone is buying to actually haul with. Now on the 1500, it makes sense to me, since someone would be more likely to "occasionally haul" and better mpg would be more desirable.

If someone discovers something that made it unfair, then slam the crap out of GM otherwise I take it at face value. I am sure the GM did not outdo the others in all categories.

 

[handirifle]

Actually, if one reads the article, the GM rep pretty well explains why.
....................
Product manager Craig Couch credited the six-speed Allison transmission with giving the Sierra HD the edge. Allison builds what are truly heavy-duty transmissions; the ones found in the Sierra and Silverado would be among the smallest it produces. Because this product was over-engineered for pickup applications, it requires less torque management, meaning it can deliver 100% of the torque produced by the engine right to the wheels.

Horsepower and torque, as displayed on price sheets or proclaimed on advertisements, is measured at the engine and not where the rubber meets the road, which Couch said can be misleading.

“The weaker link of the Ford and the Ram would be their transmission, so they torque-manage,” Couch explained. “They pull fuel in first and second gear to prevent heat buildup, or too much torque for the transmission to handle at a given step in the transmission where it could do some damage. So they put a calibration in, where they’re not utilizing all the torque and horsepower that’s available to the transmission. We don’t torque-manage to the extent the competition does, because the Allison transmission is more than capable of handling the torque demands the Duramax engine puts out. We feel the weak link in the competitors’ drivetrains is their transmissions and it’s the strongest link in ours. Our truck has the lowest stated torque of all three competitors but it actually out-accelerates the competitors because we don’t have to torque-manage and you’re getting all the available torque to the wheels, all the time.”

 

[handirifle]

The test is a joke. They used the 250 version of the truck since that was the version they knew GM would win. Take the same trucks and get the top dog version of the Ford and the Ram and see what happens with a 20,000 lb load behind them. These tests always have a known outcome ahead of time.

Maybe if Dodge put an Allison behind that beast of an engine, it WOULD be a different outcome. For a work truck, it's widely known the best combo is the Cummins, with an Allison behind it, in a Ford Chassis, is the best you can get. I LOVE the Cummins engine, but when I recently bought a diesel truck it was a GM, not because I'm a huge GM fan, but every diesel mechanic I talked to warned me away from the Fords I could afford (05-07) because of the 6.0 and from Dodges because of transmission and front end problems, and not cheap ones.

Is the Gm perfect? Heck no, but it does have it's strong points. For me they were major. Comfortable ride, plenty of power (360/650) decent mileage, and reliable engine and tranny. I don't use mine as a heavy duty hauler, just my med weight 5th wheel, or else I might have gone another direction. Each brand has it's plusses and minuses. The GM had fewer minuses, for me.

I do not see why a 3/4 ton test is unfair. The companies make them how they make them.

 

[nc redneck]

GM / Duramax is a time tested winner. Have the 2001 and 2013 3500. Did injectors deal on 01. 2013 pulls 16,500 5th wheel like a toy. Why buy some type of might be OK truck like I did with 2001 GM. Ford has gone through 3 diesel motors trying to get it right and still trying. Dodge has the Cummins name but sadly always cut every corner in the name of profits. Dodge has never been a serious contender in the HD market until they sold a lot of 3500 at $ 20,000 to $ 30,000 below competition. Both Ford and Dodge still lack a good transmission.
I bought the new greatest and latest from GM in 2001 and paid the price. Never worried about the transmission though. Ford and Dodge are still a work in progress. Why gamble on it might be fixed this year.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

You guys have it all wrong. :thumbsup:

You want the new RAM 3500 HD Laramie Longhorn package now available with a matching Case Backhoe! :drink:

http://blogs.cars.com/files/ram-truck-and-case-construction_equipment.pdf

 

[aczlan]

You guys have it all wrong. :thumbsup:
You want the new RAM 3500 HD Laramie Longhorn package now available with a matching Case Backhoe! :drink:

Which is why the test was with 3/4 ton trucks, not 1 ton trucks :stirthepot:...

Aaron Z

 

[dodge man]

The reason its unfair from the point of view of Dodge is the Aisin transmission is not available in a 3/4 ton which makes the highest powered Cummins not available in a 3/4 ton. You can get the Aisin in a single rear wheel 1 ton though. There is nothing wrong with GM's trucks, they are great trucks its just that right now they can't compete with Ford or Dodge in the heavy towing 1 ton market so they did the 3/4 ton test since it was one they could win.

These test are always predictable, someone is top dog in some segment so the competition feels the need to out do the other.

 

[Diamondpilot]

The reason its unfair from the point of view of Dodge is the Aisin transmission is not available in a 3/4 ton which makes the highest powered Cummins not available in a 3/4 ton. You can get the Aisin in a single rear wheel 1 ton though. There is nothing wrong with GM's trucks, they are great trucks its just that right now they can't compete with Ford or Dodge in the heavy towing 1 ton market so they did the 3/4 ton test since it was one they could win.

These test are always predictable, someone is top dog in some segment so the competition feels the need to out do the other.

Exactly. If Ford was doing the test they would do a 20,000# test up a mountain. They would win because they make the most torque and gear ratios. Put 4.30 gears on a F350 and 850 FT TQ and it's lights out for the competition.


What I think is funny is why anyone in their right mind would buy a diesel for 10,000# towing jobs? It's not 1996. Gas trucks are stronger than the diesel stuff of 15 years ago. I have a 1/2 ton that has no problem with 10K. I don't get my diesel out of the garage till I am a ton north of that.

Chris

 

[fordmantpw]

Nice that they picked last year's Ford to test against instead of the '15 currently available. You know, the one with more HP, more torque, and a beefier tranny.

I guess then the outcome wouldn't have gone GM's way...

 

[handirifle]

Exactly. If Ford was doing the test they would do a 20,000# test up a mountain. They would win because they make the most torque and gear ratios. Put 4.30 gears on a F350 and 850 FT TQ and it's lights out for the competition.


What I think is funny is why anyone in their right mind would buy a diesel for 10,000# towing jobs? It's not 1996. Gas trucks are stronger than the diesel stuff of 15 years ago. I have a 1/2 ton that has no problem with 10K. I don't get my diesel out of the garage till I am a ton north of that.

Chris

Which is EXACTLY what I did, and that's because I do NOT want to be towing right at the limit of what a vehicle is rated. That is asking for problems in my mind. My comfort level due to confidence in the tow vehicle, is way better. I test drove ALL available brands of 1/2 ton trucks (GM, Ford, Toyota, Dodge, and Nissan, when I bought my GMC in 2006. NONE of them overly impressed me in the braking department, so why would I triple the load on the already mediocre brakes?

Personally I think the test is as fair as it can be, BECAUSE it's the choice the mfg's make to market their certain models with powertrain components only available if you buy the top dog. Not everyone can afford a $70,000 truck, so a $55K 3/4 ton is probably the most popular model in terms of sales numbers.

Hey, when people test a Toyota Carolla against a Honda Civic, they don't complain because brand x only has a 6 speed vs brand y's 8 speed. That's EXACTLY what sends buyers from one brand to another. It's not a test to see which mechanical design is superior, its a test to see which marketing packages will perform THIS PARTICULAR test the best. If it were a test to see how much payload you could put in the bed of the truck, we all know the GM offering would most likely be dead last. Ford markets their commercials with HUGE loads in the bed of the truck, for a reason.

Hey, if I were going to be hauling heavy almost every day, I might have bought a different brand. I wanted a truck that pulls hills like they are not there, pulls my RV in comfort and hauls me around town empty in comfort, or as comfortable as a 2500 HD can be anyway. I had several Dodge and Ford drivers all tell me if you want a better ride, go GM.

For me I don't really care who has class leading whatever, I want reliable, comfortable, and power on tap when I need it.

Personally I wouldn't be defending Dodge or Fords decisions to limit torque on start, I'd be chewing out some exec online or on the phone for making that decision, instead of building the rest of the power train to handle it.

I do know GM/Allsion beefed up the Allison when they added more power to the LML Duramax. They increased the diameter of the main transmission shafts to handle the added torque. My 06 has 360hp and 650tq, and the LML's have 397hp and 765tq, so at least GM upped the power train to go with the engine. Obviously they are proud of that fact and showed it off in this test.

SO make them do a fair test, put 3000lbs in the bed and see which one does not shine headlights on the moon. But then I could say that test wasn't fair because they KNEW the GM had less payload capacity. They are what they are, ya buys what ya likes and wants and needs.

 

[handirifle]

By the way, being retired, living on 55% of what I used to make, it was a stretch to afford ONE 8 year old diesel truck, so I didn't have the luxury of using this truck for one job and another truck for lighter jobs.

I'm not complaining about my retirement or my income, just pointing out my position doesn't offer me choices like that.

 

[94BULLITT]

What were the times for each truck, I did not see them.