Another 8N Not Starting Question

[Soundguy]

make sure to lube the brake pedal shaft where it enters .. they get rusty and tight. otherwise.. brakes on a 9n/2n are no fun since you pull the axle.

 

[Rockfootball47]

Update time. I ended up overhauling the entire engine. New or restored everything. The only original parts are the voltage regulator and resistor. I go to start the Tractor this weekend and just hear a single click from the starter solenoid. I have confirmed the starter turns fine outside of the frame and the internals look great. New ring gear on the flywheel so that can't be stuck. I confirmed the engine turns just fine with a hand crank.

Since the starter solenoid I had was a Tisco part I decided to replace it with a napa part ST540 made by Echlin which I understand to be a good brand. Got it all hooked up last night and still had the same issue. Just clicks. I confirmed all the wiring to be correct and voltage to be good. I did note that the ST540 solenoid has the ground terminal on the opposing side, can't remember if its on the s or i. But the ground terminal faces away from the engine. I believe the difference had something to do with it being an Automotive style.

Not really sure where to go from here. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Soundguy]

try a jump with a 12v battery. after making sure the 6v battery is really charged.

when jumping with a 12v, just turn key on so points have power, then put tractor in neutral, and block clutch, then hook jump cables to 12v battery, then hook one cable to starter lug, then other cable to something like ratius rod. as soon as you hit that radius rod, starter should spin.

ps, if you painted the starter after overhaul, make sure it's not so painted that it is not grounding to the block

 

[Rockfootball47]

try a jump with a 12v battery. after making sure the 6v battery is really charged.
1) Would it be okay to use a jump box like this instead? Amazon.com: Clore JNC300XL 'Jump-N-Carry' 900 Peak Amp Ultraportable 12-Volt Jump Starter with Light: Automotive

when jumping with a 12v, just turn key on so points have power, then put tractor in neutral, and block clutch, then hook jump cables to 12v battery, then hook one cable to starter lug, then other cable to something like ratius rod. as soon as you hit that radius rod, starter should spin.
2) Stupid question, while doing this should I disconnect the 6V battery, or just do literally exactly what you said and leave the 6V hooked up?

ps, if you painted the starter after overhaul, make sure it's not so painted that it is not grounding to the block
3) Fortunately I did not paint anything on the tractor.

 

[Soundguy]

1, a starter jump pack s nothing like putting a battery on a starter. your car or truck will be quite sufficient for a jump off. save the jumper pack for boosting a weak battery, not totally powering a starter.

2, lets look at this. if you disconnect the 6v battery.... how is the tractor got ANY chance of starting.... the 6v battery is what is powering the points via the key. the direct jump from 12v battery to the starter is what turns the engine.

do exactly as i mentioned. 6v bat charged, key on to power points, hookup battery, put tractor in neutral, block clutch, hookup one cable to starter stud, next cable to frame/ground and starter will spin as soon as you make contact. DO NOT hit the starter switch. As instructed,t he 12v and 6v systems are isolated.

 

[Rockfootball47]

1, a starter jump pack s nothing like putting a battery on a starter. your car or truck will be quite sufficient for a jump off. save the jumper pack for boosting a weak battery, not totally powering a starter.

2, lets look at this. if you disconnect the 6v battery.... how is the tractor got ANY chance of starting.... the 6v battery is what is powering the points via the key. the direct jump from 12v battery to the starter is what turns the engine.

do exactly as i mentioned. 6v bat charged, key on to power points, hookup battery, put tractor in neutral, block clutch, hookup one cable to starter stud, next cable to frame/ground and starter will spin as soon as you make contact. DO NOT hit the starter switch. As instructed,t he 12v and 6v systems are isolated.

I don't have any jumper cables since I have jump boxes instead, so I'll have to pick up a set tomorrow to try this. I'll also have to steal my car battery to try it since I unfortunately don't have any laying around. Just an additional 6V battery from my tractor. In the mean time I went ahead and pulled every wire/cable between the starter and battery and cleaned up each connection including the starter post and where the ground connects to the steering column. I charged the battery, which was reading 7V, then tried again with both the old Tisco and new Echlin solenoids. Both just made the click sound.

Is the point of trying with a 12V battery to send a large surge and prove that lack of current is the problem?

 

[Soundguy]

correct. and ps.. you don't need to take the bat out of the car, just pull up tot he tractor and attach cables, etc.

one last thing, you had mentioned it turns by hand correct? just making sure we are not dealing with a hydrolock issue.

what does voltage ont he battery go to when the relay is chattering?

 

[Rockfootball47]

correct. and ps.. you don't need to take the bat out of the car, just pull up tot he tractor and attach cables, etc.

one last thing, you had mentioned it turns by hand correct? just making sure we are not dealing with a hydrolock issue.

what does voltage ont he battery go to when the relay is chattering?

So the problem turned out to be the starter. One of the brushes had come loose. Got everything back together and finally got it started. Unfortunately we noticed that the oil pressure wasn't going up even after 5-10 seconds of letting it run. So we came up with the brilliant idea to fill oil from the oil pressure plug on the front of the tractor. Added some oil and the gauge jumped to its max, 80psi and wont go down. Oil had actually started leaking from some of the oil lines including at the actual gauge.

Any idea why there could be too high of oil pressure?

 

[Soundguy]

Should be near impossible for an n to make more than 45 due to the relief, the one you just messed with.

If it had super cold oil and a super tight engine, at cold throttle it could likely be making 65 psi.

I'd take that plunger out and make sure you didn't get it jambed up

Then I'd look at the oil, didn't put gear oil in it did you?

 

[Rockfootball47]

Should be near impossible for an n to make more than 45 due to the relief, the one you just messed with.

If it had super cold oil and a super tight engine, at cold throttle it could likely be making 65 psi.

I'd take that plunger out and make sure you didn't get it jambed up

Then I'd look at the oil, didn't put gear oil in it did you?

Nope, I swear it wasn't gear oil but that would have been interesting. I'm wondering if the incorrect oil pressure relief spring could be to blame. Do you know if there is a standard "free length" for the spring? Or should I just order another one to be sure since they're probably so cheap?

 

[Soundguy]

i don't have a manual with me, but if the spring was too long or strong, it would keep the plunger from lifting at 45 psi.

on the flip side of that argument, a worn N engine has a hard time making relief pressures anyway.

pull the plunger and reseat and see what you get.

 

[Rockfootball47]

i don't have a manual with me, but if the spring was too long or strong, it would keep the plunger from lifting at 45 psi.

on the flip side of that argument, a worn N engine has a hard time making relief pressures anyway.

pull the plunger and reseat and see what you get.

What do you mean by reseat? Just unscrew and pull out the spring and plunger and reassemble? I recall that the spring was roughly 3" long.

We were assuming we didn't have any vacuum in the oil pump since the pressure initially was at 0psi. To gain pressure at all I had to add 6-7oz of oil in the cavity that the plunger and spring fit into. Could this have anything to do with it? We let it run for maybe 20seconds with the high pressure and then I noticed oil leaking from the connecting at the pressure gauge.

 

[Eyecatcher]

You said the op went to 80 and did not go down. Is it still @ 80 not running? If so the gauge is plugged. I also don't think an N oil pump will push 80 psi unless something is plugged solid. I had to prime my pump to get pressure, and I used gear oil. It never went over mid range on the gauge. Have you changed the oil filter? don't know if a plugged filter would cause this or not.

 

[Rockfootball47]

You said the op went to 80 and did not go down. Is it still @ 80 not running? If so the gauge is plugged. I also don't think an N oil pump will push 80 psi unless something is plugged solid. I had to prime my pump to get pressure, and I used gear oil. It never went over mid range on the gauge. Have you changed the oil filter? don't know if a plugged filter would cause this or not.

Let me rephrase. While the engine was running it read 80psi (Max). Come to think of it, the needle may have been trying to go beyond 80psi but couldn't. When I turned the engine off the gauge dropped to 0psi. This happened the last two times that I ran the tractor. I also noticed oil leaking from the pressure gauge threads and the 3 way splitter valve that screws into the block.

I did apply about 1oz of gear oil to the pump when I was reassembling the engine. It sat for about 3-4 weeks after I did that until I tried to start it so I also added about 3-4oz's of car oil 5W-30 into where the oil relief spring and plunger go to attempt to prime the pump just incase. When this didn't work as I got it started and the oil pressure gauge read 0psi we tried adding more (4-6ozs) of oil into the same location. From this on the gauge has read 80psi.

 

[doxford jim]

A shot in the dark but have you tried to verify that the current gauge is reading correctly ? If it is a mechanical gauge with a tube supplying oil to the gauge, it would be a simple and easy job to connect another known (new) pressure gauge to see if the old gauge pressure readings are repeated. If the new gauge gives different readings then I would suspect the old gauge is shot (borden tube failing). Anyway, it wouldn't cost very much to buy a replacement gauge and install - that would be my next step if it were me.

 

[Rockfootball47]

A shot in the dark but have you tried to verify that the current gauge is reading correctly ? If it is a mechanical gauge with a tube supplying oil to the gauge, it would be a simple and easy job to connect another known (new) pressure gauge to see if the old gauge pressure readings are repeated. If the new gauge gives different readings then I would suspect the old gauge is shot (borden tube failing). Anyway, it wouldn't cost very much to buy a replacement gauge and install - that would be my next step if it were me.

No I haven't. The main reason I don't want to buy a new gauge is because of the oil leaking from the threaded connections which I confirmed are pretty tight. I didn't want to over-tighten them so I left them along for now, but when I installed the lines I made sure they were reasonably tight.

I do have the original gauge but the background is rusted so I can just make out that the needle is all the way to the left when not hooked up. I will try it tonight.

 

[Soundguy]

Those fitting are all taper, so just go back with some tape

 

[Eyecatcher]

I would certainly put the old gauge back on there and see what it indicates. My gauge face was so dark I couldn't read it, but it indicated about mid face. Got a new one when I re-assemble the tractor. You have completely rebuilt this engine. Figure FO-27 in the IT service manual shows the oil path. It's not a very good representation, but it appears that there is an oil galley down the side of the engine, and the op gauge comes off the rear of that galley. It's difficult to tell from that drawing what happens to the oil that is bypassed by the pressure relief valve, but I would say that it sprays down over the timing gears. That being a rebuilt engine, all tolerances should be tight, and if the oil pump is in good shape or replaced, it's making maximum pressure. The only thing I can think of is that there must be something plugged tight, and the relief valve is stuck shut. Can't imagine what could cause that, unless someone in the past has used a much heavier spring, trying to up the op to over come wear. I think if the old gauge registers full scale, I'd pull the oil relief valve, disconnect power to the ignition coil, roll the engine over with the starter, and see what comes out where the pressure relief is supposed to be. It's just possible someone has installed the wrong spring.

 

[doxford jim]

Until you know for sure that the oil pressure gauge you are using is good, you are really chasing a problem that may not exist. The threaded section for the pressure gauge should be tapered and either pipe thread dope or PTFE tape should fix that. If the pressure is proven good, it might pay to try a different (weaker spring) in the relief valve and see what happens. I am guessing here, but would think around 30 psi. or better might be the oil pressure for the newly built engine.

 

[Soundguy]

Oil relief was designed to open fully by 45, so I'd call that closer to new engine spec.

However if I owned an n that held 30 psi hot idle, I,d celebrate.