Another 8N front pulley question

[Crinton]

Thanks CircleRat. No front end hydraulic pump. Loader (unfortunately) is powered from 3pt hitch hydraulics with arms chained down to axle - I know that's an abortion but that's what we have right now!

 

[CircleRat]

Okay. The knockity-knock doesn't sound deep, but as I said it's hard to tell from the video.

Have you tried the stethoscope on the lower end of the motor?

EDIT: Have you tried draining the motor oil to see if you have any metal nuggets in the crankcase? If so, it could be a broken piston skirt... my neighbor just found this problem on his 8N.

 

[Crinton]

Have not detected anything unusual with stethoscope on lower part of engine. Haven't drained oil to check for metal but can do this, probably have to be tomorrow.

 

[CircleRat]

I just watched your second video and I noticed that the pulley is so bent that it's making the belt jump around. The knock does seem to coincide with the rotation timing of the pulley, I can't help but suspect it's hitting on something behind it. How hard would it be to get the pulley off and see if that's what's happening? You could also try to straighten it...

 

[Crinton]

Pretty involved to get the pulley off - and I'd sure like to run the engine with the pulley off to see what happens! Have to take off loader base front end at least, then the front axle stuff, fair bit of work. With cracks at existing welds in loader framing, very slow hydraulic issues and potential for a fair amount of work on the tractor itself I'm debating where to go with this one, costs and outcomes, etc. Junk loader, keep tractor and fix, and so on. Will drain oil tomorrow!

 

[Soundguy]

Gonna be hard to run with pulley off

 

[Crinton]

Oh, I just meant to run it briefly, in a test!

 

[Soundguy]

gonna be hard to run with the puley off!

ever look at the front cover and oil seal ?

 

[Crinton]

Haven't looked in detail at front cover and oil seal, and I'll take your word for it in terms of running with the pulley off. I haven't gone through the task of getting at the front pulley in detail yet either.

I have, however, drained the oil and filtered it off. I didn't find any nuggets but I did find about a teaspoon or so full of medium to fine sand size particles with a few very small red paint flakes or that's what they look like (go figure). I felt up in the openings around the oil plug hole and didn't feel anything gritty and no nuggets as far as I could get my finger around the rim. The particles appeared to be all fine enough to go through the filter on the drain plug and therefore back into circulation. They appear to be metalic although some of the larger ones have a bit of a ceramic appearance. I could try washing some off with gas and then examining further - is it worth it, does this engine need stripping?

 

[oldpilgrim]

some of the larger ones have a bit of a ceramic appearance.

possibly lead ?

 

[CircleRat]

Washing the particles and inspecting them closely is a good idea. Try putting a magnet on them.

You know, you're going to have to remove that pulley anyway, it's pretty bent from what I can see in your videos. You'll need to either replace it or at least try to straighten it. You're probably better off getting a new billet pulley. Once you address that issue, see if it's still knocking. If so, you know it's not the pulley.

I suspect replacing the pulley might just fix it, but that's only an uneducated guess.

 

[Soundguy]

i wonder... think he could have a liner moving? ( pure WAG )

 

[CircleRat]

You mean a cylinder sleeve? It's certainly possible, and could explain the particles in the oil.

 

[Soundguy]

might be the knock too.... and it won't go away with the plug wire pulled since it's still traveling with the piston.

plausible i guess?

 

[CircleRat]

Of course, good idea. We already know the pulley is bent and so needs replaced, so maybe checking for a loose sleeve would be the logical next step if the new pulley doesn't fix it?

 

[Soundguy]

it's at least one of the next easiest things to do ( pull the head that is )

if it's not a liner and not a bent pully tapping on something.. then that starts lookin like deeper engine..

 

[oldpilgrim]

the 'ceramic' looking particles have me thinking it's lead. Are the bearings inserts or poured in that engine?

Either way, the sides of a bearing could have given way or have worn so there is side to side slap.

 

[Soundguy]

bearing shells

 

[Crinton]

Lots of good thoughts here, thanks.

I took the oil pan plug out again and saw that although this tractor is painted blue, the plug washer has some red paint on the sides of it - makes sense as I understand these tracors were originally referred to as 'red bellies'. That would have to be where the red paint flakes came from. I removed the filter and was going to cut it up to see what was inside but decided not to bother at this point.

I washed of the oil residue in the drain pan with gas and then checked the remaining particles with a magnet; the fine stuff acts like iron filing so it is iron/steel. The ceramic-like particles crush with a screwdriver blade so they are probably not metal or lead; maybe they are bits of carbon but from where?

If it were a sliding liner, wouldn't I hear it tapping on the cylinder head on the up-stroke, with stethoscope on and around the head? Didn't hear anything.

Taking the head off would be easy but I think the front pulley has to be the first priority, straighten the pulley (hopefully), put it back, re-assemble and try again. Front end of loader frame has to be stripped first, then the tractor stuff. This is going to take a few days, as and when I get the time. We'll go from there.

 

[Soundguy]

rad paint could be glyptal too, from inside castings.

as for the fines of steel... that's not uncommon in an old tractgor engine to find some fines on any drain plug.

can't guess at the other stuff...