Amending Clay Soil - cheaply?

Bob_Skurka · May 28, 2005

We have heavy clay. Where we used to have a traditional garden I amended the soil with compost and sand. The garden started out pretty small, it was probably 30' wide by 100' long. In that little area I dumped the entire contents of a 3 axel dump truck full of sand and tilled it in. It helped, but not enough! When mixing sand with clay, I agree with the others, you need a LOT of sand. I think the compost probably helped more.

But what ended up making the soil the easiest to deal with was when the lovely Mrs_Bob decided that our daughter's playhouse would look great in the spot that the garden used to sit! Now I don't really have much work in that garden at all /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif This year I started again, but on a much grander scale, the garden will be about 2 acres and I just took over part of the 32 acre farm field that I lease to a real farmer.

BTW, someone up the thread suggested contacting a town that composts . . . THAT IS A GREAT IDEA and I completely forgot about that, but one of the towns about 20 miles north of me does that, I'm thinking I may contact them and see about getting my dirt hauler to bring down several loads of compost for me, it would certainly be worth a try (after this years harvest).

BoneheadNW · May 28, 2005

What a great thread! The only thing that I would add is that "mixing" anything in with clay is easier said than done. We could compare the density of eachother's clay (my clay is heavier than yours), but the stuff I have here is nearly impossible to mix. When they were building the house the excavator would routinely get stuck in the stuff and the dump trucks had a hard time dumping the clay as it would stick in the bed.

We hired a bulldozer to distribute a huge pile of organic material (composted material shredded by a tub grinder) around our back yard area. I then blew in two high-sided dump trucks full of material from the settling ponds of a sewage treatment plant (I didn't tell my wife at the time as she would have freaked out. I know that because she freaked out when I told her a year later). I can't remember what they called it but it seemed to work well and was pretty cheap. We then hydroseeded over that.

Bonehead

Tom_H · May 28, 2005

BoneheadNW, to mix clay with sand, wait until the clay is dry and hard. Then rototill the surface of the clay to turn it into powder. Lay sand on top of it. Now rototill this several times to mix the small and large particles together. This will be much more effective than trying to mix when the clay is wet; there will not be a consistent mixing when wet. The downside of this is that the small amount of texture the clay had is now gone because the clay has been pulverized. Next, you would need to mix in lots of organic matter to restore texture and provide moisture retention. One thing the organic material does is to take microscopic clay particles and bind them into larger clumps. With the action of roots, frost heave, earthworms, etc. to move the soil around, the soil will change its texture such that it develops nodule like clumps of matter (many clay particles bound together by the organic compounds) which have aerated space between them. This provides breathing space in the soil while partially decomposed pieces of woody matter act as little sponge like water reservoirs which can provide moisture to roots.

Was the "manure" from the sewage treatment plant perhaps called "guano"? That's what they call bat droppings that have accumulated in caves over tens of thousands of years. This stuff was once "mined" from caves and sold as fertilizer.

jeffinsgf, regarding sand on the golf course: if the soil was heavy clay before they built the course, they probably laid down a lot of sand and tilled or disced it in before they laid the initial sod. Over time, the sand settles downward through the clay and you wind up with the surface (where the shallow grass roots are) having more clay particles and fewer sand particles. The subsoil now is a good mixture of particle sizes while the topsoil needs more sand. Spreading a little more sand each year, as you have described, will restore the correct proportions at the surface of the soil. This process, however, is dependant on that heavy application of sand at the beginning. Simply adding a little sand yearly without the initial heavy application, would not be effective.

willywildes: I do not agree with your comment to jeffinsgf,( "over sanding a green or fairway is not what this thread is about...") I think his comment is pertainent to the discussion. Even if it were unrelated, he is free to express his opinion. The only thing the moderators do not allow is vitriolic and vulgar language. Your composition has run-on sentences which do not begin with upper case letters, yet no one has chastised you for what you have written. I do not think what you have said to Jeff is appropriate.

willywildes · May 28, 2005

I forgot the period. excuse me. you added three changing the tone. if you want to amend your soil cheaply, by over sanding your fairway or green. knock your self out... good luck!!!

Tom_H · May 28, 2005

( I forgot the period. excuse me. you added three changing the tone. if you want to amend your soil cheaply, by over sanding your fairway or green. knock your self out... good luck!!! )

That's not at all what your original post said. Here, in toto, is your original quote:

( over sanding a green or fairway is not what this thread is about you like sand knock your self out. good luck.)

When an excerpt is taken from a quotation, three periods denotes that the original quotation actually continued and that only a portion has been quoted. If the quotation has been redacted at the beginning, the quote begins with quotation marks followed by three periods then the included portion of the quote. If the middle of the quote has been redacted, the redacted portion is replaced by three periods at that location in the midst of the quote. As is in the case of your quote, which I redacted, if a quote is redacted at the end, the redacted portion is replaced by three periods and followed by a close quote mark. Should the redacting editor's commentary continue in the same sentence, but beyond the quotation, a comma is placed between the third period and the closing quotation mark. If the sentence ends with the quote, such a comma is not employed.

The point of my reply to you was that your statement to Jeff implies that this thread is about something other than the topic about which he wrote. I do not agree with your statement to him. The insertion of a period would not change your meaning. Your last post has an entirely different meaning from your previous post.

I would recommend that you educate yourself better in both content and convention prior submitting written compositions. You are making the degree of your depth of knowledge all too clear.

willywildes · May 28, 2005

You crack me up.

fractal · May 28, 2005

PB

I think many have missed the "cheaply" point.

The issue with sand is the amount needed for most clay soils. I think many people, including the above referenced "expert" suggest 50:50 ratios of clay to sand will give decent soil. Unfortunately you are looking at tilling up the top 6 inches, removing 3 inches, bringing in 3 inches of sand, and mixing it. This may not be "cheap" depending on your access to sand.

The "common" way to amend clay soils is with organic material. ANY organic material. People all recommend what they have used but many miss the "cheap" part. Point is that any organic material will work. People living next to a sawmill will use saw dust. People living next to a cow farm will use cow manuer. People living next to a horse farm will use horse manuer. People living near a mushroom factory will use mushroom compost. And so forth. The key is

1 - LOTS of it
2 - cheap

Now, "fast" and "cheap" don't often go togather for fixing soil. The only "fast" way is to dig it all out and bring in good quality top soil. The "cheap" ways take time. 3 - 4 inches of organic material mixed into the top 6-8 inches the first year followed by an inch or two for the next 3 or 4 years will give pretty good soil. You will have to add additional organic material every year or so to "keep up".

Sand, on the other hand, may require a bit more upfront expense to bring it in and mix it in but may offer a less compacting base in the future. Only thing is, last time I priced having a bunch removed and replaced with sand and tilled in, it turned out cheaper to have the top 6 inches removed and replaced with sandy loam topsoil.

Up to you, but pretty much everyone says that a little sand won't do any good and may actually cause harm. It takes a lot of sand to make it right. Compare this with ANY amount of organic material is a step in the right direction..

willywildes · May 28, 2005

AMEN! And the structure to your post looks great.

SPIKER · May 28, 2005

I agree with about 1/2 of the posters: to do it right do it right... remove & replace is a major expence but is done once if this LAWN is getting done then you only want to do it once...

now to maintain it the sand, gypsum & organic mix is way to go for less expense and doing it once...

anyhow gypsum actually binds the clay particals on a molecular level and creats a sand LIKE partical which has it's own name I don't know what it is though it was on a organic gardening show once. the organic mater (like described above, poo saw dust ect. helps creat more space between the clay sand like particals. this lets the water flow through the clay. the problem is it HAS TO GO SOMEPLACE! if the ground is 6" of good soil and then a solid block of clay the good soil only acts like a sponge soaking up so much water then you have a swamp still... (actually more like a BOG than a SWAMP) /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

getting some drainange tile in is what you should think about if you get LOTS of water and have LOTS OF CLAY. otherwise build a POND which will actually dry out the land a good bit to.

anyhow the above stuff is only form someone who has not real interest in much of anything tonight and is too tired to post much more /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SPIKER

Egon · May 28, 2005

Sounds just like what Bird did for his garden worked well and was inexpensive. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mayhaps he just may know what's it all about.

Egon

LarryD · May 28, 2005

Well I'm in the same boat but at the opposite end.

I'm on a mound of glacial till that passes water like a sieve. In fact, the hill I'm on is a "high recharge area" for the aquafer, according to the county. My biggest problem is the rocks that keep growing in my pastures.

I have busted the ground up with ripper teeth down on a box blade, picked rocks by hand, run a landscape rake to soften the contours, picked rocks by hand, run the tiller /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif, picked rocks by hand. then spread well aged horse manure, tilled and picked a few more rocks by hand.

The process seems to be working well and I think the manure really helps in making a good layer for the grass to take hold. It seems to break up the sandy/gravely composition of the ground and help retain some moisture near the surface.

I would think if you tilled in a significant amount of manure it would loosen the soil up. Density is a relation between a given substance and the amount of voids. By tilling in manure, you introduce voids and therefore loosen the clay. Where that goes in a year or two is beyond me but I would think that it should produce a good layer of top soil.

I'll trade you truck load for truck load of glacial till for your clay... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rswyan · May 30, 2005

I don't think I've seen this one mentioned in this thread yet (too lazy to recheck all the posts I've read over the last few days) ... one suggestion I heard a long time ago (and I've never tried myself although I thought it sounded good) is rock dust ... is supposedly to be real good as far as restoring mineral content to the soil ... although I'd imagine that would depend on the kind of rock that the dust came from. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If you have a plant with a rock crusher anywhere near might be worth checking into.

cisco · May 30, 2005

Well, I've got too much sandy soil in a portion of my property - why don't we swap some clay for sand? Just kidding, WA is too far away.
Like many on this thread, I'm adding chipper/shredder debris, top soil from a pond digging site, manure from a local horse boarding place, and everything else organic I can get cheaply. I spread it around, and periodically rent a tiller (I'm going to have to buy one, no doubt) to mix it in, after the ripppers on my box blade cleared out larger tree roots and the like. I, maybe, now have 4 inches of reasonably decent stuff (1/2 sand and half whatever) on top of the sand. SOME DAY I'll get to planting a garden.

have_blue · May 30, 2005

If the original poster's clay is really hard and nasty, and the grade is not too high or steep, maybe he should consider topping the clay with a layer of coarse sand (for drainage) then a heavy layer of topsoil. That way you just bury and ignore the problem, which is what nature does anyway. No tilling, no treating, no worrying...just bury it and forget it. Out of sight, out of mind. A little more expensive in the short run, but cheaper and a lot less work in the long run. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PBinWA · May 30, 2005

More great input. The area is on a slight grade so over time the good soil will wash away. And in the NW we get lots of rain so it WILL wash away. I already lost a few yards of good soil I laid down last year so I know this will be an annual event. Fortunately, it will stay on my property and make the fields below full of nice dirt.

It's interesting that a lot of us in WA state have the same problem - but not surprising.

Thanks again for all the great feedback. I'll try to let everyone know how it goes.

EddieWalker · May 30, 2005

Dealing with clay soil was something new to me when I moved to TX. At first I thought I had to do all sorts of work to it in, but slowly realized that the grass types I considered bad in CA, were good here. Bermuda and St. Augustine are two examples. They both grow great in my red clay, need very little water and are green all spring, summer and fall. They do go dormant in winter when temps drop to freezing.

I also found out the clay holds water in it much longer then I thought possible. If you dig past the hard surface crust, you'll find its quite moist just a few inches down. Here, I've found that to be true after months of 90 plus degree temps with no rain at all.

The only amendment I'm familiar with that is "commonly" used in these parts is lime to cut down the acid level. Red clay his high acid levels, which is why we have so many pine trees.

My point is this; instead of fighting a battle with your soil, which is a losing battle at best, try to find out what will grow on it.

If standing water is an issue, improve your drainage. Otherwise, take advantage of what you already have.

Eddie

Tom_H · May 30, 2005

If all he wants to plant is the lawn he mentions, this could work well as long as the topsoil is deep enough. If, however, he wants to plant shrubs and trees, there is a potential major problem. When there are distinct layers of soil types, roots usually will not cross the interface. Virtually any gardening, horticulture, or soils management book you can find will tell you how important it is to rototill differing layers of soil types together to insure proper root growth. I have seen it many times; someone digs a hole in one type soil, plops in a rootball with a great potting mix, and waters. Even if you cut the rootball properly, the roots will not cross the interface. The plant grows large, but the roots go only to the interface. A few years later, the plant blows over in a storm because the root zone was so small. When various soil types are mixed so there is a gradual gradient of change, rather than an abrupt change, the roots will adapt and continue to grow. Done properly, your suggestion should work well for turf. If he wants to add shrubs and trees, he needs to dig out a planting hole two to three times the diameter of the rootball then mix the soil types such that there is a changing gradient from the potting mix in the rootball which becomes less loamy and more claylike as the distance increases from the rootball to the outer perimeter of the planting hole. The rootball should be cut to stimulate outward growth and the plant should sit a couple of inches higher than the surrounding ground.

Highbeam · May 31, 2005

My new plan is

1) grade to drain as much as possible. Curtain drains and slopes.

2) Try to establish pasture. Test area with seed and allow natural growth evrywhere else.

3) Amend the soil with something cheap and organic. I'm thinking a wood waste product will be available locally but would prefer composted manure. Till it in as deep as possible. Since we're tilling, add lime and fertilizer as needed and as affordable.

4) Try again with the grass after a year. I know clover favors the low nitrogen soil so maybe clover instead of grass.

We'll just have to see. Where I have smoothed the grey/blue heavy clay and provided slope and seed, the grass grows fairly well. Where the water ponds on top of the smoothed clay, the roots won't go down and the grass does not live. I think Eddie had the most applicable advice for pasture type growth.

PBinWA · May 31, 2005

I seeded an acre of pasture early this year with a seven seed pasture mix (clover, grass, and some legume). The soil is the same as what I am trying to put nice lawn in but the weather is going to be hotter and quicker to dry out in the next few months.

I'm going to use lots of horse poo and till it in and do my best to keep the ground wet while the lawn gets established.

If you till/plow and then seed in March and the weather conditions are right then you should have no problem with your pasture.

In general I think the grass will do well in my crappy soil once it is established. I just wanted to help it get established as quickly as possible and was curious to see what the collective TBN wisdom had to offer.

PBinWA · May 31, 2005

New related question.

Would anyone know if Douglas Fir Bark dust would be OK to till into the soil? I need to do some beauty bark around the place so maybe I'll just order a whole truck load and then till in any that's left over.

I just want to make sure that Douglas Fir Bark dust isn't going to interfere with the grass (perennial rye grass).

Thanks,

Paul