All Things Livestock...

[texasjohn]

Here is some good info re Body Condition Scores (BCS) in case you have not heard of this visual appraisal tool.

Scoring Cows Can Improve Profits, L-292

Notice that scores of 8 and 9 indicate lower fertility.

 

[Spiveyman]

That's a great point about the number of cattle drinking from a single trough keeping the ice down. We have about 70 right now with the 150 gal tank I just put in and one of the old fashioned concrete deals that's supposed be fed by pond. Right now we're pumping into the one below the pond and have the float deal on the one by the barn fed by city water. I did put a heater in it, so I guess that will pretty much cover me. I didn't bother with the deep hole under the tank because our dry clay soil was like concrete! It was all I could do just to get that tank sunk in a couple feet. I used the FEL to dig the hole out and used a shovel & mattox to level it. Seems to work well finally. That will hold until the spring when I can get NRCS money to help put in permanent tanks.

As much fun as it was getting that bull in, sometimes I'd rather be bored with the ones that just walk in.

I looked over the BCS deal kind of quickly. I need to read through it better but it looks like we'll always be lacking a bit on that scale since it's designed for commercial cattle - by commercial I mean "not Longhorns." Our cows look so different than a charlois or angus. We have one that would be a 1, she's sick and not likely to make it. The others though are thick enough not to show ribs, but aren't filled out the way the ones in the pictures are. I do see what you mean about the 8's and 9's though. On the freak end of fat, not good.

 

[texasjohn]

Hmm... you won't believe how much water 70 head can drink until your trough runs dry and you are carrying water in 55 gal barrels... you pour it out and it's slurpred up before it reaches the end of the trough. On a very hot, 100+ day, a mature cow will drink 30 gallons... less when it's cooler

Strong recommendation... know now where you can get access to a 300 gallon (or so) tank, preferably on wheels, but maybe it sits in the back end of a pickup... so that when you have a water failure, whatever reason, you are immediately capable of getting water to the stock... they can go without food for a while, but water is a serious matter when they have zero.

I also suggest that the scores stand for what they are... indicators of body/health for an animal, regardless of breed... agreed, it's kinda in the nature of longhorns to not get up into the high end of the scale (but the scale still exists) and, they will more often be found in the 3 to 5 point on the scale. However, I submit, strongly, that for any breed an animal in 1 or 2 body condition is seriously having problems and will not be cycling. The score is worth understanding and study.. I bet even that if you search you can find photo examples for longhorns.

Agreed, your cattle natural body style will not be confused with english/european breeds. Neither will Beefmasters. However, body condition scores apply to them just as well...

 

[Spiveyman]

Yeah, I'm already amazed how much they drink on those hot days. Never would have thunk it. My papaw and my uncle had to haul water for decades. Just got city water in the last couple of years. Both still have big trucks with big tanks for hauling water when necessary. If we had an emergency, I could use them, and we still have one pond on the back of the farm that has not been disturbed. It's a decent sized pond, 30 feet deep at least. We plan to fence around it and graze back there this winter, but worst case we could give them access to part of it. Over the next couple of years I plan to build a lake on the back of the farm, maybe 8 to 12 acres depending on how much money I can put towards the project. That would help ensure that we don't run into a catastrophic problem in the future.

I understand about the scores, that's a great system to use. The cow we have that's a 1, she's got one hoof in the grave already. She gave us a great little heifer this spring, but she's got some kind of problem and I don't think she'll make it. At least we'll get our money back on her with that one heifer, and hopefully she'll do well.

My only problem now with that water tank for this winter is that the outlets in my barn don't have 3 wire (ground) so I can't instal a GFI outlet. I'll have to rewire my barn! There's always something isn't there? Never done that before, so I have new skills to learn now.

 

[texasjohn]

Glad you have water hauling capability... it's wonderful to have resources in the family you can call on when needed.... hope you never need to!

 

[Spiveyman]

The rains have finally come! Over 8 inches in the last two days and about 3 days worth of rain still being forcast! This is a "just in time" deal for us. My pond was nothing but muddy muck and the ground was like concrete. Luckily it hasn't all come at once either. A good little soaker yesterday, then some down pour, soaker all night, and off and on light/heavy today. Some soaking in, some running off. Whew. The grass will jump up like crazy as soon as the sun pops back out.

So I'm getting in to the real business of raising cattle, which as you pointed out is a lot of hard work. Lot's a fence work so far. I still have two breaks I need to splice (just the top strand of barbed wire) and I need to run another strand or two to raise a long section. Then I'll start looking at how to divide the fields for rotational grazing next year, and how to fence out the pond and woods so I can graze the back pasture this winter.

I checked the bulls->steers last night. Some have dropped, some have not. The bigger ones are still "in process" (to keep it a family show). Everything is going well, they are already conditioned to move up towards the front pen when I come out and I have only been feeding them a handfull of grain ever few days. They patern quickly. I have to work on my pens to get a good system, that will take a while.

I do also have one bull that I have to do something with. He's a young bull, very spirited. He's the one that tried to kill my partner the day we unloaded him on his farm. He loaded up OK with the herd, and never came at us when we loaded him up to bring him to my place, but when we tried to cut him to work him through the chute he broke through that gate panel and has been a handful ever since. He charged the guy who's been pumping water into the trough by the pond the other day. Scared the dickins out of him. He is the first to look at you when you come around even if he's 30 acres away. He NEVER takes his eyes off of you if you are in sight. I don't trust the little son of a gun. We didn't get to band him either, so he's still intact, plenty of hormones.

Any suggestions? Will banding him likely affect his level of aggression? I don't know if steers get buck wild like that too, or just the bulls. My thought is to throw a rope around his horns and drag his but all over the farm just to show him who's "boss." Then with that rope on him, drag him up into the Dube chute and squeeze him in real nice, band him, brand him, put in a nose ring (for future use) and let him back out. See if that gives him an attitude adjustment. May make him more wild or break him a bit. Either way, we want to band him, and get him out of there as soon as we can. He's probably 700 lbs or so, it'd sure be nice to get another 100 lbs on him as a steer, and just call it.

Just curious your thoughts.

 

[texasjohn]

Glad the rains have come

Have you discovered the fence rachets at TSC??... phone me if you don't understand how to use them to help you mend barb wire fences...and keep them tight.

Regarding your "spirited" bull ... nope, you can do all the things that you mentioned and it won't make ANY difference. He will be no tamer and it won't teach him any lessons... he'll still be just as much of a problem.

When I had just gotten into the Beefmaster business, like you my pens and fences were not the best. One cow had a bull calf that behaved exactly as you describe... always watching, etc... When I first worked the calves and took some to auction, he and a couple of others didn't quite make it into the pens.. no problem.. I'll get them "next time"

Well, "next time" I got all the first bunch penned, but HE jumped out of the pen. so, took that bunch to market.

Somewhere along the way, I got him penned up again into a reinforced pen and went down there daily for 30 min to 1 hr, fed him, messed with him in the pen... he never quieted down... meaning, he never "learned the lesson"

Then, couple of months later, got stuff up, had devil of a time getting him in the pen but managed to get him into my only high sided pen which let to the loading chute. So, I loaded him into my trailer... you know the type, 14 ft, tandem axles, center gate, shop made from welded sucker rods, I had added the top of more welded sucker rods. Ran him into the trailer and was lucky enough to get him penned into the front section and both gates shut... SUCCEESS

Well, not so fast... he looked at the sky thru those welded bars, rose up on his hind feet, jammed his head thru the bars and forelegs, bent them down and started climbing up the side of the trailer like it was a ladder. I grabbed a 2X4 and went to work on his head... he came right on out of that trailer and off into the pasture again... I was amazed... because of the numerous delays, he now weighted about 11-1200 lbs.....

He never went near the pens ever again... and the next time he saw a trailer, it was my flatbed... and he was nursing a lead induced headache on the way to the slaughterhouse.

Moral of the story.... get him the heck out of there before he hurts somebody and is so big you have to shoot him because he is uncontainable in any pen you have been able to devise. Banding him will make no difference on his current or future hate for confinement conditions or people who try to push him to go places he'd rather not go.

If you want to rehabilitate something, work on your herd bull... I think he likely will respond. This youngster never will.

 

[Spiveyman]

HA! Man, I'd love to have seen your face when that bull jumped out. Holy cow! I can't believe it. I particularly like the "grabbed a 2x4 and went to work on his head" comment. I did that with Shooter when we went back to load him right after we bought him. Only it was a shovel. The first pop right between the eyes startled him and turned him back, but when he got the picture that the only paths were the trailer and through me, he just came. I popped him again, but he had a different look in his eye that time. It wasn't exploratory, it was conviction. He won that one.

I can see a similar path with this young bull. Lots of effort, still psycho. Not what I was hoping to hear, but I strongly suspect you are right on. I wonder if banding him for 30 - 90 days or so would make any difference in the meat? He's small enough today (my partner thinks closer to 600 lbs maybe) that he's not going to sneak up on 1,200 lbs any time soon. He's also a bit smaller than the other bulls at his age. Smaller horns, and frame. There's basically nothing good about that dang thing. We'll be much more on the lookout next time we buy a lot of calves. I wish there was a good way to load him other than dragging him on the trailer by rope. We'll see.

Thanks for your thoughts there, I appreciate the wisdom. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Spiveyman]

So I took your advice about using the FEL to drive T-posts. I remembered someone had said to do that, but couldn't remember who. I looked it up on my other thread about stuff you have to have to start farming... and it was you. That seems like forever ago. Anways, I don't have the longer tubes like you have, and as such I wound bending the first one I tried. Stupid mistake actually. After than I kind of got the knack for it:



I also didn't have a good way to judge height, so I had to use the hood:


We got about 6 inches of rain over 4 days, so the ground was relatively soft. That helped. last week would have been like driving them in concrete. I pushed a little, then let off to let the post relax and scoot under the FEL if needed. Over all, worked like a charm. Thank you VERY much for the tip there.

One of my cows decided to pay a neighbor a visit. She must have been looking for her calg because as soon as she saw it, she hopped back over the fence and hasn't been a problem. The place where I was driving these is an internal fence that just isn't quite high enough to make me feel good. I dropped about 50 posts along this existing fence row and will run a couple strands of barbed wire when I can get back out there.

I also learned a valuable lesson, horns don't conduct electricity. There's another internal fence, 3 strand high tensile electric on T-posts... You can see in the picture there's taller grass in the fence line. The polled animals don't go near it, but mine are wanting that grass so they graze right up there. Their horns will push the wire out of the way, and they can reach it. Without even meaning too Shooter pulled the feed wire (the one supplying electricity) off the post over the gate. I wonder if they've ever been shocked because they don't seem to respect it the way the other cattle do. They could easily lift up while grazing and strip all 3 wires off the posts. I'm going to have to have something more permanent in the back and figure out a way to make the electric work with those horns. I think a higher top strand would be fine as they'd likely sniff with their nose up in the air or touch their neck while looking over and they'd get a jolt, but down low the horns seem to help them a bit.

 

[sandman2234]

One of Daddy's neighbors has a two cow ranch, and they wanted to borrow Daddy's trailer to haul a cow to somewhere. Daddy doesn't loan out his trailer, especially to someone who doesn't have a truck to haul it, but he felt sorry for them, so he agreed to haul it for them. They herded the cow over to Daddy's with a cattle prod, and started loading it up before Daddy even knew about it. (or before he was hooked to the trailer). Daddy came down to the barn just in time to see the cow climbing out the top of his trailer. They had neglected to shut the cross partition and the cow had room to manuever, if that made any difference. The cow got hung by the rear leg and the owner left to go get a hacksaw. Daddy wasn't sure what the owner had in mind to cut with a hacksaw,(but I don't think it was going to be his trailer) but by the time he got back, the broken leg had dislodged itself and the cow was lying on it's side, obviously hurting. They took some slats and made a brace for the cow's leg, by sandwiching it between the two boards. The cow died two days later and they came over wanting Daddy to pay for the cow.
Must have been something I didn't understand about it, but Daddy stopped by the local Dairy and picked up a "day old" calf and gave that to them. They were satisfied, and their herd was back up to 100%, even though one was a little smaller than before.
Moral of the story, build your trailers to carry birds in it, cause cows can fly and neighbors expect your trailer to haul whatever they put in it.
David from jax