Airline Security/Letter to representatives.

[cowboydoc]

You misunderstood what I said Bird. I mean that you should have specially trained law enforcement individuals up there who are armed. Yes the thought of a high school education and weekend training course with no background scares me but the thought a well trained, honest, and moral officer of the law with a handgun lets me rest easy on the plane.

 

[Bird]

OK, Richard, I kinda suspected that/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif, but wasn't sure whether you were making a distinction between "security guard" and "law enforcement officer" or whether you were making the distinction as to whether or not they should be "armed". Of course, we've all got our opinions about training, type of arms to use, etc. I guess I was in the minority among my peers before I retired because I never carried anything but a revolver (never had one malfunction although I've heard of it happening) while so many officers, particularly the younger ones, wanted automatics (actually semi-automatics - hold more bullets - claimed too often the police were outgunned by criminals with automatic weapons). I could never bring myself to subscribe to the "spray and pray" method of shooting; figured 6 bullets placed properly, from a gun that always worked, was better than 14 scattered everywhere, from a gun that might or might not work.

Bird

 

[scruffy]

Cowboydoc, I hope you don't mind me putting in my .02 cents here.

The average gunfight at the 'OK Corral' would have 50 bullets fired and 5-6 'hits', now where do those other bullets go?
In a pressurized cabin at 30,000 feet, I don't think I would want to be there to find out.
Nope, can't say it would make me feel comfortable at all! Stun guns, tazer guns, maybe, but NOT firearms....don't care who's hands they are in! There isn't a Peace Officer in the world that is going to have dead accurate aim on each and every round fired.
It would be more advantagious to secure the flight crew in a bullet proof compartment without cabin access while in flight.
The Tazor, or Stun guns would be of value...particularly the Tazor...does not need physical contact to be activated.

 

[cp1969]

I thought I was the only disciple of Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan left, but it seems there is at least one more.

 

[ERNIEB]

This isn't aimed at anyone, just some stuff I heard. Keep in mind I don't know anything about airplanes. In fact, the last time I was on one, when I got off I swore I'd never get on another one. That was in 1970, and so far I've kept my word.
I saw an interview with a guy from the FAA, and he said that at one time they had a large number of Air Marshalls. He said that for the most part it's a boring job. He said often the marshalls sort of looked for things to do, and ended up causeing more trouble than they prevented.
Concerning the cabin. Someone told me that the cabin door can not be vault like, it has to be able to give way. In fact there are panels that are made in such a way that they will break loose under certain conditions. I don't know if that is true, or why such designs would be needed.

Ernie

 

[scruffy]

Ernie, at one time, they did have air marshalls, why the program faded away, I cannot say, but I would imagine you are right about the boredom! I can't think of anything that would be more boring, except watching grass grow.
I would also imagine aircraft regulations had a lot to do with the panel separating passenger/flight crew....just as I would imagine recent events have struck down a lot of the 'old' ideas as to what is proper. With sufficient security/protection, at least the flight crew can prevent a duplication of the WTC event. It will take a mental adjustment on the airlines part to be able to ignore what transpires in the passenger compartment, and the flight deck must be secured. Just my opinion as to what will have to transpire in order to prevent such an event in the future.

 

[jdkid]

hi ya's
the things talked about may be some of the good that comes out of this sad event, better flight safty,safer fuel ,armed people on planes ,maybe air controlers speaking up faster and some plan put in place. if planes fly out of flight path fighter jets are sent to escort ??.no fly zones near important places/large poplutions??only time will tell
take care
JD Kid

 

[scruffy]

JD, you've got that right! All we can do at this point is supposition. The Government will, in time, tell us what it is going to do.

 

[MDNY]

Mywife and I have been watching the news since Tuesday evening from 5pm -11pm every night up til today. We just couln't watch anymore, we must take a break. I live in Upstate NY and have visited NYC on business and one of the hospitals that service the WTC is a client of mine.

I feel that airport security is a JOKE. Plain and simple. Not only do I worry about Barney Fife as the Air Marshall, but we don't even have any that competant working the sercurity at some airports.

What we really need is for the Federal Gov't to put set dollar amount tax, say $10 - $20 per flight, per passenger. This would pay for the added security. Make the FAA and/or FBI responsible for the security, NOT the airlines. Federal officers, working the security check-ins, officers in the sky. Make it a Federal crime, not a local one if there is a problem in airports.

During any major event, the news always finds the analyst who worked on proposals for the Federal Gov't about, terrorism, building codes, security at large. I saw one this week, where the analyst proposed tougher security at airports due to our risk for domestic terrorism. Congress's response was ". . . it would cost too much". I guess a $40 Billion price tag isn't so much now. I would gladly spend an hour at the airport for domestic flight checking in, IF, I knew I would arrive at my destination.

While we were watching the news this week, we saw a news report the day after we started limited flights. New tougher airport security was in place. It was?! Three members of a flight crew (United Airlines I think) at different intervals walked though security and then assembled. You know what they all showed that they got a Box Cutter, Cork Screw and Pocket Knife past the NEW TIGHT SECURITY. They were quickly detained and questioned.

My wife doesn't want me to fly for work, and fortunately I don't have to very often. But I tell you I am more likley to have more hops and layovers rather than take a direct flight anytime soon or at all.

One last item, why didn't we go after Osma Bin Laden this way three years ago after the Embassy Bombings in Africa? While there is no guarantee, maybe this could have been prevented.

 

[dmccarty]

Just to answer a bunch of different posts.

Bird, I have seen a revolver lock up, not once but TWICE! SCARY as all get out! /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif Course I have seen far more semi auto have problems but those are so easy to fix with the tap, rack, go drill. The failure I saw in the revolver would have been fatal if the person was in a firefight. I still don't UNDERSTAND HOW the failure occured but this is what happened.

I forgot the brand but I'm pretty sure it was either an S&W or Ruger .357. The lady was using a .38 and the first round fired and stopped. It was NOT a squib load. The bullet lodged between the cylinder and the barrel! Thats what I don't understand. How would an oversized bullet fit the cylinder but not the barrel? Course all of the energy of the bullet got soaked up into the cylinder and frame. Lots of heat quick. There was a very real concern of the other five rounds cooking off as the range officer tried to pry open the cylinder. This is what who have killed the person in a firefight. I was shooting next to the women when this happened. My pistol was already in its holster and I back my a.. off the firing line ASAP. I'll let the range officer chew my a.. but I ain't standing next to that revolver as it cooked.... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The lady reloded. Back to the course of fire. First round. Same result. She was given new ammo. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif She was using some real bad reloads. The new ammo did not have a problem and the revolver never had a problem in the next 1,000 rounds.

VERY scary.

Bird, you are very right about the pray and spray mentality with high capacity magazines. It has its place and I've been run through and practiced ambush drills where pray and spray may have its place but other than that I would prefer to hit the bad guy first! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Just read of an officer involved shooting where the officer was ambushed while walking into his house with his wife. Something like 50 rounds were fired by the officer and the bad guy which sounds bad but the officer had some problems to deal with. Only two superficial hits where made. One on the bad guy and one on the officer. The bad guy should have killed the officer and his wife. He was waiting in the bushes with a shotgun and got off the first shot. The officer knelt behind some planters which took the shotgun hits and returned fire. He fired some quick and instictively that he fired one handed even though he was trained to primarily shoot two handed. It was raining very hard and it was night time when the ambush occured. The officer's wife freaked out and thought he was dead. She went right into tunnel vision time. She recognized the bad guy as her exhusband. The officer had to run from cover to protect his wife. He was standing in front of her when he was shot in the leg. At that point she was knocked to the ground and dragged to cover/concealment. Right about then or shortly thereafter the bad guy went to the other side of the house and killed himself.

Short version of a long story. But the officer's instictive reaction saved his life. Instantly returning fire kept the bad guy's head down. Course it would have been better to have nailed the bad guy with the first round but what are you gonna do but go practice some more! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Back to armed officer's on planes.

Its got to be a incredibly boring job. The odds of having something happen are pretty small. Very boring. But right now the security is needed to get the public flying again. Otherwise the slow down of the aviation buisiness will ripple through an alread weak economy.

Rounds on planes. While its not a good thing to have bullets flying around a plane. Its certainly better than having a hijacking. And its going to take more than one bullet to bring down most modern aircraft. Besides there are rounds and weapons that can be use that might not even penetrate a floor where the controls are most likely to be located.

Secure doors on cockpits are only part of the answer. Kevlar stop bullets not all types of attacks. Armed professional security officers is what I'm talking about. Not some numnuts working for a security company. Do what the Israeli's do.

Are armed officers a perfect solution? Not at all. But they are better than ANY of the solutions I have heard in the last week. It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to prevent ANYONE from carrying weapons onto a plane. I can think of a couple of ways right now. But I'm not telling, so dont ask! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I can also think of tactics bad guys could use to take out the armed officer. Course I can also think of tactics that officer could use to counter act the bad guys. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Black Spy/White Spy for you Mad Magazine readers! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The only solution that gets close to optimal is armed officers. Anything else just won't work as well.

Later...
Dan