Air in well water line.

[scesnick]

I posted recently about finally getting my residential water from the creek instead of the crappy well we drilled.

I put a 3/4HP submersible pump in the creekbed with a check valve down there. then the waterline runs 500ft up to my house. I then have another check valve just before my 30/50 pressure switch.

The problem is everytime we turn the water on we get a large amount of air into the system. I am REALLY,REALLY hoping I don't have a hole in the supply line. I did dig it up once this summer to find the electrical splice. But, I didn't think I touched the pipe. (atleast i hope I didn't)

I do have the submersible pump laying on it's side under the water. It is inside a 6 inch piece of schedule 40 pipe with plenty of holes drilled into it. Could the pump be causing some type of vortex allowing air into the system? I stood there and watched while the pump ran and I didn't notice a thing.

Since I have a check valve right at the tank, The pressure in the tank wouldn't change even if the pipe was leaking underground. Atleast I wouldn't think so.

Possibly the tank is bad but it doesn't seem waterlogged.

What if I took the check valve off at the tank and then re connected the pipe. I would think if the pipe was leaking underground then, the pressure would drop and the pump would kick on even when the water is not running ...

maybe I am way off, Maybe it is in my tank or even the pressure switch ....... Any ideas. ????

 

[Army grunt]

Un hook the supply line an using a compressor pressurize the line an with a air gauge check to see if the line is holding. next look at the pump if its not getting enough water it will act as if it was getting air. also your tank might be water logged. you need to drain it an add air in the pressure fitting.
Army Grunt

 

[scesnick]

Un hook the supply line an using a compressor pressurize the line an with a air gauge check to see if the line is holding. next look at the pump if its not getting enough water it will act as if it was getting air. also your tank might be water logged. you need to drain it an add air in the pressure fitting.
Army Grunt

Thanks Army grunt.

I checked the tank the prssure seems to be on par with specs. Mybe the pump isn't getting enough water since I have it inside the shcedule 40 pipe. I am also beginning to wonder about the pump lying on its side.

 

[mrmikey]

I'm wondering if it might not be that you have two check valves instead of one. I remember when last summer I had to put a new submersable deep well pump in, they recommended against it, be darned if I remember why tho and I can't find the paperwork. It had something to do with trapping air between the two valves at pressure and not allowing them to open or some such thing. I'll keep looking.....Mike

 

[scesnick]

I'm wondering if it might not be that you have two check valves instead of one. I remember when last summer I had to put a new submersable deep well pump in, they recommended against it, be darned if I remember why tho and I can't find the paperwork. It had something to do with trapping air between the two valves at pressure and not allowing them to open or some such thing. I'll keep looking.....Mike

I can easily take the one off at the tank and see if that helps. Thanks.

 

[mrmikey]

Can't find my paperwork unfortunately but I did find this on line Submersible Pumps and multiple check valves? . It doesn't really mention your problem completely but multiple check valves seems to be a no-no....Mike

 

[Carl_NH]

If you remove the check valve at the tank and turn off the supply to the house after the tank and the pressure drops then you have a leak in the supply line. This is sort of the same thing that Army grunt suggested with air.

The pumps have a built in check valve in the top so you should not need another one above the pump. Do you have one 500' continous run of poly pipe from the pump to the tank or is there a splice? If there is a splice that would be my guess..

500' is a long run and how much lift or elevation rise do you have from the creek to the tank?

 

[DaveOmak]

Here is one article describing what is needed on a deep well. Types of check valves, velocity of water in the piping etc. There are many variables that would introduce air.
Tech Topics: Check Valves for Submersible Installations - Columns - National Driller

 

[sal64]

we had same prob, i had my well pipe lifted and put another check valve, one at the tank also, diddnt help wound up being low water table sucking air. havent had a prob since 8 yrs now.

 

[Kays Supply]

If I remember correctly the double check valve system can let polluted ground water in while the pressure is down. You want the line from the pump to the house always pressurized.

 

[SPYDERLK]

If you remove the check valve at the tank and turn off the supply to the house after the tank and the pressure drops then you have a leak in the supply line. This is sort of the same thing that Army grunt suggested with air.

The pumps have a built in check valve in the top so you should not need another one above the pump. Do you have one 500' continous run of poly pipe from the pump to the tank or is there a splice? If there is a splice that would be my guess..

500' is a long run and how much lift or elevation rise do you have from the creek to the tank?

If I remember correctly the double check valve system can let polluted ground water in while the pressure is down. You want the line from the pump to the house always pressurized.

Sounds good. Get the tank check out. If you have backflow its the bottom check or the water line.
larry

 

[EE_Bota]

Possibly the tank is bad but it doesn't seem waterlogged.

With your combination of aerated water, and low inlet head, you could be sucking air in directly, or sucking air out of the water.

It could be that a throttling valve at the house to limit pumping rate at the pump could limit air problems resulting from the pump inlet. A large tank could make up for the relatively low pumping rate.

Silly ideas come to mind too, like inverting you bladder tank such that it is mounted upside down. That way, you can prevent air from building up in the tank, making sure air is dealt with as soon as it is delivered.

Then downstream of that, you could install an automatic air bleed valve to take out the remaining air.

I agree also, only one check valve if at all possible. Pressure often is needed to reinforce check valve closure. If the elevation difference is much, the upper check (the bad one to have installed) can hold the water, but the lower one, lacking reinforcement pressure, could leak, and the water column will fracture due to its own weight, and form a vacuum as it does, sucking air our of the water, creating a slug of air in your line. When the pump restarts, that slug will remain free air.

 

[scesnick]

So, it seems that a few suggest only one check valve. This coul be easily done since I have easy access to both check vallves. Which check valve would be the best to eliminate? I would guess the one closest to the tank?

 

[Patriotic Stabilist]

What I'm curious about is you actually have clean enough water to drink from a creek! That is awesome.

 

[valley]

Sounds like you have a pvc pipe with your pump inside. Is it possible when your pump kicks on you have draw down or is the pump too deep in the water for that?

 

[scesnick]

What I'm curious about is you actually have clean enough water to drink from a creek! That is awesome.

I live way back in the sticks on top of a mountain. The creek originates on my property.
It is clear and cold but I still have a UV light on it just in case. Although my Grandfather drank this water straight out of the creek for 50 yrs.

Sounds like you have a pvc pipe with your pump inside. Is it possible when your pump kicks on you have draw down or is the pump too deep in the water for that?

The pump is lying on it's side ( which could be an issue i am still looking into) It has atleast one foot of water overtop of it at all times. Usually more. I just wonder if it would be possible for the pump to evacuate the water out of that pipe too quickly cousing some type of vortex or something?

I did watch the actual pump when it turned on and I couldn't even tell it was on other than a very slight buzz sound.

 

[Carl_NH]

As mentioned before remove the check valve at the tank and turn off the supply to the house, run the pump until it shuts off and then watch the gauge. If it slowly goes down you have a leak somewhere.

If it drops you either have a leak in the supply line or a bad check valve at the pump. At the same time you do this you could lift the pump from the creek ( turn it off then pull it out and wipe it down) if water is coming out of the pump then that is the culprit. If no leakage from the pump end then its somewhere in the supply line.

Also the pump laying on its side and any debris that it might pull in could be lodged in the check valve - so you might want to add some sort of a filter like a bag or fine mesh screen over the PVC pipe.

 

[SPYDERLK]

As mentioned before remove the check valve at the tank and turn off the supply to the house, run the pump until it shuts off and then watch the gauge. If it slowly goes down you have a leak somewhere.

If it drops you either have a leak in the supply line or a bad check valve at the pump. At the same time you do this you could lift the pump from the creek ( turn it off then pull it out and wipe it down) if water is coming out of the pump then that is the culprit. If no leakage from the pump end then its somewhere in the supply line.

Also the pump laying on its side and any debris that it might pull in could be lodged in the check valve - so you might want to add some sort of a filter like a bag or fine mesh screen over the PVC pipe.

Yes. Another thing the mention of pump within pvc pipe just reminded me of. -- In connection with EEbota: air being pulled out of the water ... or even entrained. That pipe may restrict the intake - or hide an avenue that is ingesting air. If this is an issue you should see micro bubbles when you use water while the pump is running. OP, is your water ever milky when it 1st comes out? -then clears? That is air. I think its a leak in the lower check tho -- due to poor seating. The upper check, as mentioned, would contribute, as well as pump position/gravity biasing the valve poppet slightly.
larry

 

[Kays Supply]

Any time we ever put a pump in a creek/spring, we always dug a hole deep enough to submerse the pump so that it could stand upright. The check in the pump is a gravity check , on most anyway, no spring. So laying on it's side would be an issue for it if not the bearings. If the creek is moving, the PVC sleeve isn't a " must do" like in a pond. The moving water will cool the motor. I have even seen this setup done to where there is a remote "well" dug offset from the stream and the stream piped through it. That way it could be winterized. Just food for thought.

 

[scesnick]

This is why TBN is such a great site. All great advice.
I am in the middle of six straight 12 hr. shifts right now but as soon as I get a day off I'm going to troubleshoot this system using the advice I got here... Thanks fellas.