Air in 210 Loader cylinders

/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #1  

MattG

New member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
15
Location
Western Washington
Tractor
John Deere/2720
Have air in the loader loader cylinders that I can't get out completely and keeps coming back the longer I use it. I can grab the cutting edge of my bucket and curl it up and move the rams 8 to 10" into the cylinders. Has anyone else had this problem? If so what have you done to correct it? I have had it to the local John Deere dealer. They didn't have any idea. Local JD rep came by when the tractor was at the dealer, said I needed to keep the rpm's up high. I was running it around 2500 rpm. Ran it at 2900 rpm and it didn't make any difference. What do all you 2210 owners run your tractor rpm's at when doing loader work? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #2  
I doubt you have a air problem, It sounds like you have a spool that is not closing completely alowing fluid to travel back and forth. Not sure if this means you have a bad valve or if this is just the nature of this valve as mine will do the same thing say after a quick dump. Someone with more hydraulic expertise may be able to better explain.
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #3  
Matt,

Welcome to the forum. I'm still not clear as to what problems you're experiencing, but as for the rpm's, I use my loader at everything from idle (slow) to about 2800-2900 for really heavy work.
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders
  • Thread Starter
#4  
Thanks for the replies.

Lance W,
It is air in the cylinders. I loosened a fitting at the top of one of the bucket cylinders and curled the bucket by hand and I could hear air come out as well as spitting hydraulic fluid.

JDFanatic,
I'll try to make it clearer as to what my problem is. You might try this yourself. Use your hydraulics and lift the bucket about 3-1/2' off the ground. Uncurl the bucket so the cutting edge is pointing down about 30 degrees. Now, go stand in front of the bucket and grab the cutting edge with both hands and pull up like you are trying to curl the bucket. Are you able to move the rod into the cylinder? I can get the rod to move between 8 - 10" into the cylinder. When I let go of the bucket the rod comes back out. I hope that explains it a little better. When it was at the dealer I had to show them what I was talking about.

I also believe there is air the lift cylinders, but it is much heavier to lift.
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #5  
Matt,

I just tried what you describe and there is no way I can move mine by hand. You definately have issues with your hydraulics. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Let us know how you resolve them.
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #6  
Are you sure that your hydraulic fluid is at the proper level? If the loader was installed on the tractor without adding additional fluid you will have problems.
Just a thought,
Ken /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #7  
I believe I had the same issue with mine at one time. Whenever I would dump the bucket by pushing the joystick fully right ( fast dump) and then put the loader down to back drag, the bucket would roll up level not holding position. I would have to hold the joystick right for something like 10 seconds for the bucket cylinders to build pressure. Somewhere in the forum someone explained that in fast dump
the fluid flows directly from one side of the cylinders to the other alowing gravity to take over. There is a small plate next to the joystick linkage that you can flip over to prohibit the joystick from going fully right into fast dump. Since doing this
I haven't had the problem. I think there is a reference to this in the 210 loader manual. I'll look when I get home.
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #8  
lance,

If memory serves me right (scary thought) that plate is a lock out of all the loader functions -- or should be. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Update!

Went to my local JD dealer and explained to the service manager that I was still having a problem. He showed me his email from JD tech support. The other option JD suggested is to put an orifice in the rod side of the bucket cylinders circuit. I'm no expert, but it seems to me it is a bandaid for some other issue. If it was a design flaw/restriction, I would think it would be needed by all 210 loaders. If it works and doesn't cause other problems, like slow dumping, I guess I shouldn't complain too much. Or should I?
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #10  
Matt,

I agree this isn't a widespread problem, so that fix seems kind of weird. What is an orfice supposed to do? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #11  
I have had similar intermittent issues usually after using "float". and sometimes after a "fast dump". It results in a delayed action at the bucket for about 3 seconds. again this is only intermittent and a minor nuisance but not enough to worry about in my situation. I would llike to know what's causing it though. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #12  
<font color="blue"> What is an orfice supposed to do? </font>
It slows the fluid down as it goes out of the cylinder. It is a standardly installed item in several loaders as well as the boom circuit on backhoes. Some are installed from the factory.
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders
  • Thread Starter
#13  
JDFanatic,
If you look in the 210 loader operators manual, you will see there is already an orifice in the lift circuit.

I was out doing some loader work this afternoon. This floppy bucket is really bumming me out.
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #14  
Matt,

OK. So why does your loader need one and mine (and others) do not? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders
  • Thread Starter
#15  
JDFanatic,

Sorry I didn't respond to your question before. I don't know why yours doesn't need an orifice and mine does. Maybe it has something to do with manufacturing tolerances. Anyway, I stopped by my dealer to check on whether the parts came in. Lo and behold, I was told they were just going to call me. Asked if I could install it myself to save transportation costs and the hassle. No problem! Hopefully I can install the orifice by the weekend. In case your wondering it will be installed in the rod end of the bucket circuit at the coupler. Same place as the one for the lift circuit. Hope this works!

Matt
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders
  • Thread Starter
#16  
Tried to install the orifice and adapter today. Adapter is too big (thread size) 3/4" vice 1/2". Called the dealer to let them know. Service manager is going back to JD and ask now what. I would have thought they would know what size adapter I needed to install. Oh, well! I will be in waiting mode until JD responds to the dealer.

Have a safe and happy 4th!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #17  
Sorry, this turned into a long post, but here goes ...


I have a similar and ongoing "problem" with my 430 loader on my 990. I put "problem" in quotes because it is more of a minor nuisance to me than anything, and I can bleed the air out with some cycling of the cylinders when it happens.

Here are the symptoms I see and how I deal with it:

Just like your issue, if I point the bucket down a little so the bucket cylinders are extended a few inches and then try to lift the front of the tractor off the ground, the cylinders will often push back in a couple inches when upware pressure is applied to the bucket lip, indicating trapped air. I can also see the lift cylinders bouncing in and out a bit when I drive over rough ground, also indicating a bit of trapped air.

Stroking the cylinders fully in and out several times will generally bleed most of the air out, BUT I have noticed that the cycling is much more effective if done at full throttle (more hydraulic flow available).

I think there could be a few reasons for air getting in:

First, low fluid level could cause the pump to suck air occasionally or lead to excessive foaming of the oil or something.

Second, heavy loads in the bucket can apparently cause cavitation, especially when the bucket is dumped. The heavy load tries to pull the bucket down faster than the pump can supply fluid to fill the void behind the extending cylinders and the vacuum created can cause cavitation and resultant air pockets to be formed.

Third, air could possibly be pulled in past the cylinder seals or even SCV spool seals. I think this might be possible under the same conditions as the cavitation mentioned above, and maybe if the tractor is left sitting idle for a while with the loader in a position where the lift arms or bucket can settle, or move a bit from their as-shutdown position.

In my case, it seems that drawing air in past the seals when left idle is the most likely cause because the problem is always worse when first starting up the tractor. I can get it all bled out and holding solid, park the tractor for a couple days, and when I go to use it again the air is back.

Here are some thoughts on bleeding the air out by cycling the cylinders, which I'll throw out for comment ...

If you lift the loader just enough to allow the bucket to be fully dumped and curled back, the dump cylinders are in a fairly vertical position. Imagine that there is air trapped under the piston, on the rod side. When you extend the cylinder in an attempt to bleed that air out, the piston moves down and at some point that air will get pushed into the rod-side hose. When the cylinder is bottomed out, you now have a hose full of air, plus whatever air is still in the cylinder (there will be a bit of space left in there even with it bottomed out). Retract the cylinder and that air is just pushed back in.

With the bucket curl cylinders, I always cycle them several times with the loader down low AND with it raised all the way up which puts the curl cylinders at a bit of an upward angle (rod higher than base end) in the hope that the air will keep rising toward the hose and eventually all get flushed out. You can't do this with the lift cylinders, however, so what to do about those?

I have read that hydraulic fluid will absorb air slowly under pressure and so with use all the air should eventually go away, but I have no idea how much use that might take. Perhaps the fact that, in my case at least, cycling the cylinders at full throttle works better is because the high speed oil rushing to the cylinder gets any trapped air all stirred up and suspended in small bubbles rather than allowing it to just sit under the pistons.

Well, those are my thoughts on the issue. Any other comments, corrections or suggestions?
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders
  • Thread Starter
#18  
Brad,

The description of your "problem" is worded quite well and mirrors the issue I am having. I have tried your bleeding procedure in the past. It seems to help some, but the air comes right back.

I too have thought about how air could be getting into the system and have come up with the same ideas as you have. I have definitely ruled out a low oil level. One other place air could be getting sucked in is at the hydraulic couplers for disconnecting the loader (may not apply in your configuration). I have also thought about air getting past the pump shaft seal but have ruled it out.

One of the things I don't quite understand is how cavitation fits into this equation. My understanding of cavitation is the vacuum created from the piston moving faster than the fluid is flowing to fill the cavity left behind it. How do you get air from a vacuum? I have considered the fact there will be a certain amount of air entrained in the hydraulic fluid and that may be coming out of solution. But to me it seems like an excessive amount of air.

As the tractor is still under warranty, it's still up to JD to fix it. I might add this really didn't start to show up until I had around 45 hours on the machine.

I received a call from my dealer yesterday. They told JD that the adapter wouldn't fit my machine and they said 'oh, yeah, your right.' No s***! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif So JD has to get in contact with the engineering folks in Canada as that is where the loader is built. With July 1 being a holiday in Canada and Monday being a holiday here in the states and my service manager being on vacation next week, I won't hear anything till the following week.

Don't get the wrong idea! I love my 2210 (don't tell the little woman that!). And JD isn't blowing me off, they are trying to find a solution. It's just frustrating to try and use the loader when the bucket flops around like a wet noodle.

Matt
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #19  
You're right about the quick connects as a potential source of air entry. I had thought of those before but forgot to put them in my post. Actually, thinking about it now, if a bit of dirt or something is stuck between the two couplers in just the right spot, it could be preventing the seal from sealing, but then you'd probably see a leak as well.

I agree that cavitation alone isn't enough to explain the problem (especially as severe as yours is), but it might still be able to create lasting pockets of "air". That "air", however, could be oil vapor instead of real air. Not 100% sure if that is possible, but if it were water, I would not be surprised to see the "boiling" (which is essentially what cavitation is) leave gaseous water vapor, so maybe hydraulic oil can do the same thing?

I will soon be switching to Amsoil synthetic hydraulic fluid - about 10 or 12 operating hours to go. Synthetics can sometimes promote better sealing and if cavitation/vaporization is actually happening, maybe a synthetic will be better in that regard as well.

I still wonder about trapped air just being pushed back and forth in the hose and not able to be fully bled ....
 
/ Air in 210 Loader cylinders #20  
I started having this same problem last fall. I can eliminate the air by cycling the cylinders as mentioned, but when you're moving and spreading 10 tandem loads of fill, it get to be a real pain when your bucket gets floppy.

What was your final solution to this?
 

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