Agco discussion from Farmtrac thread

[Robert_in_NY]

This post is to continue the discussion from the Farmtrac thread as we went on a tangent there. To anyone who doesn't know about what was said there Agco is going to drop the Agco brand and use the Agco name as its parts business.

AGCO didn't own the Massey Ferguson name until far after they owned Allis Chalmers/Oliver/White/ect. AGCO bought the MF name more than 15 years after they bought White and AC. Once they got the Massey name, they've been gradually heading towards putting that name on most all of their AG line-up. AGCO would have never got their chance to buy MF had it not been for Conrad Black and his corporate raiding of MF. They were a solid company with fantastic sales numbers in the world market.

AGCO has a licensing agreement with Caterpillar regarding the Challenger line-up. Massey Ferguson owned Perkins diesel. When AGCO bought Massey FErguson, they got Perkins along with the deal. Caterpillar wanted Perkins. At owns Perkins now, and as a result of that deal, AGCO builds the Challenger tractor line which CAT dealers sell. Obviously we have a case where some of you aren't familiar with AGCO and are making comments based on what you DON'T know about them. They went after these "names" in order to get the name recognition and the dealer networks. By the time AGCO bought the names of Oliver/Cockshutt/White and Allis Chalmers, those brands wree so far behind the market, their products were no longer the "big name" they once were. Gleaner, which was owned by Allis Chalmers was the reason why AGCO went after AC. White had a line of air planters that was the envy of the industry at the time. AGCO went after White for them. As those products became obsolete, so did the names of Allis Chalmers and White. Beyond that, Massey Ferguson outsold White AND allis Chalmers in the worldwide tractor business by a huge margin. They're STILL one of the biggest sellers worldwide. MF combines have always been big sellers. AGCO's products are huge sellers overseas. In this day and age, the US market isn't the only focus of major AG manufacturing. In the last few years, AGCO, with the Massey FErguson name front and center, are making inroads to regain a stronger share of the US market. Their ties to Caterpillar won't hurt that one bit.

Bill, I understand the history of Agco and I still feel they have dropped the ball on marketing here in the US. It was around 5 years ago if I remember correctly that they dropped Allis from Agco-Allis which upset a lot of the Allis faithful. Now they are dropping the Agco line all together. Why wait 5 years? Now you have another "brand" that is obsolete and depending on what happens with the current Agco dealers these owners are going to be playing the farmtrac game where they have to go to other dealers like Challanger or Massey Ferguson and play "which tractor is the same" unless Agco has a database that shows every Agco product and parts list so any of the Agco brands can order them.

I know Agco bought Valtra because they wanted Sisu and Valtra was a growing brand here in North America. Since Agco aquired them you don't hear about Valtra anymore. But you see Agco put the Sisu diesel in a lot of their products so I wonder how long they will keep Valtra.

I actually like Agco as a whole but some of their decisions seem short sighted. If you buy a company for one aspect why run the rest of the company into the ground only to let it go away. If they wanted Sisu, buy Valtra, take Sisu and sell off the Tractor line. If Massey Ferguson was going to be their major brand worldwide why go to the trouble of dropping the Allis name only to drop the Agco brand 5 years or so later? You have all these marketing dollars basically wasted on a brand that is going to be eliminated. Why wouldn't they have just dropped the entire Agco-Allis brand and invest all their money from marketing and brand engineering on Massey Ferguson? These are the types of moves that Agco has made over and over that makes the public scratch their head and it doesn't help Agco's image in the tractor community that wants brand security now more then ever.

 

[CDsdad]

... owners are going to be playing the farmtrac game where they have to go to other dealers like Challanger or Massey Ferguson and play "which tractor is the same" unless Agco has a database that shows every Agco product and parts list so any of the Agco brands can order them.

I currently possess a CD which cross references MF and Agco and I believe some Challenger CUTs. I do not know if these exist for the larger tractors or if they have a parts cross reference database, I would like to assume they do, but knowing the equivalent model should provide fairly easy access to parts.

I finally formed the opinion that Agco's marketing schemes must be globally centered or either their marketing people are on crack. They sure don't seem centered on the US market. Sad thing is, they have some great products out there (and some un-great ones). I personally have never seen an Agco tractor and only 1 Challenger and that was in Texas. I'm sure there are some around here, somewhere. Plenty of Massey Ferguson red, though. Maybe they think they can make a better product by centralizing manufacturing in fewer products. Likely it's a money thing, though.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

There is a large Agco dealer up in Perry, NY and a smaller Agco dealer about 20 minutes from here. The only MF dealer is a joke of an outfit that cares more about selling Kubota lawn tractors (no offense to any of the Kubota owners) then any utility or larger sized tractors. I can not even think of where any other MF dealers are around this area without going to the web and searching. Cat dealers are generally in the cities and I have never seen a Cat dealer because I don't go to any of the cities very often. I have also never seen a Challenger dealer around here or heard of one. I know they are around but none close by.

I know the Agco dealer close to me just took on Agco less then 2 years ago. He was and still is a Valtra and Kioti dealer. Now he is going to have to change signs again and go thru getting another brand there to replace Agco. Even if he takes on Massey Ferguson (which I wouldn't mind) he would have to sign new agreements, replace all the Agco things at the shop with Massey things and try to reassure all of his customers that Massey Ferguson will be here to stay. I am sure the customers that bought Agco tractors will be happy having an orphan brand.

I am not sure about the larger Agco tractors but if they are like Case-New Holland then each brand has a few "brand" specific options to help the dealers sell tractors. With New Holland if you want Supersteer you have to buy it from New Holland. Case-IH has their own specific options. So now you will have to hope Agco parts will have a parts database that covers every Agco brand of tractor so any Massey or Challenger dealer can order parts for Agco tractors without any confusion. Just type in the model and pick the part you need.

I am just glad there are not very many other companies left for Agco to buy as their heritage is already quite mixed.

 

[MFRED]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think AGCO is just stopping AGCO compacts. I belive the larger tractors are still going to be sold. The way I understood it was Massey Ferguson was to be "THE" Compact line. If you sold AGCO compacts you would now need to switch to MF. Simple thinking, spend all your compact advertising money on one brand rather than three. It would be good to clear up this misunderstanding of AGCO/MF/Challenger lines.
I belive Challenger is still going to be marketing compacts mainly for the rental & Municipality stuff. ( I don't think many homeowners want to pay that CAT shop labor rate!) The AGCO vision has always been to have the AGCO name as the top of the line in technology. Like FENDT. Like em or not, you can't argue with the tech.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think AGCO is just stopping AGCO compacts. I belive the larger tractors are still going to be sold. The way I understood it was Massey Ferguson was to be "THE" Compact line. If you sold AGCO compacts you would now need to switch to MF. Simple thinking, spend all your compact advertising money on one brand rather than three. It would be good to clear up this misunderstanding of AGCO/MF/Challenger lines.
I belive Challenger is still going to be marketing compacts mainly for the rental & Municipality stuff. ( I don't think many homeowners want to pay that CAT shop labor rate!) The AGCO vision has always been to have the AGCO name as the top of the line in technology. Like FENDT. Like em or not, you can't argue with the tech.

There was an interview with Martin Richenhagen (Agco's president) in a Dutch tractor and machinery magazine recently in which he said there will be four strong brands for Agco. Massey Ferguson, Fendt, Valtra and Challenger.

The compacts are the first to go which only leaves the utility and farm tractors as Agco doesn't sell any harvesters or other equipment under the Agco brand like they do Challenger and Massey Ferguson.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

This post is to continue the discussion from the Farmtrac thread as we went on a tangent there. To anyone who doesn't know about what was said there Agco is going to drop the Agco brand and use the Agco name as its parts business.




Bill, I understand the history of Agco and I still feel they have dropped the ball on marketing here in the US. It was around 5 years ago if I remember correctly that they dropped Allis from Agco-Allis which upset a lot of the Allis faithful. Now they are dropping the Agco line all together. Why wait 5 years? Now you have another "brand" that is obsolete and depending on what happens with the current Agco dealers these owners are going to be playing the farmtrac game where they have to go to other dealers like Challanger or Massey Ferguson and play "which tractor is the same" unless Agco has a database that shows every Agco product and parts list so any of the Agco brands can order them.

I know Agco bought Valtra because they wanted Sisu and Valtra was a growing brand here in North America. Since Agco aquired them you don't hear about Valtra anymore. But you see Agco put the Sisu diesel in a lot of their products so I wonder how long they will keep Valtra.

I actually like Agco as a whole but some of their decisions seem short sighted. If you buy a company for one aspect why run the rest of the company into the ground only to let it go away. If they wanted Sisu, buy Valtra, take Sisu and sell off the Tractor line. If Massey Ferguson was going to be their major brand worldwide why go to the trouble of dropping the Allis name only to drop the Agco brand 5 years or so later? You have all these marketing dollars basically wasted on a brand that is going to be eliminated. Why wouldn't they have just dropped the entire Agco-Allis brand and invest all their money from marketing and brand engineering on Massey Ferguson? These are the types of moves that Agco has made over and over that makes the public scratch their head and it doesn't help Agco's image in the tractor community that wants brand security now more then ever.

Why did CNH drop the FARMALL name, why did they sell off the McCormick brand name? Did Fiat "drop the ball". Nope. Neither did AGCO when they decided to eliminate AC, White, ect. Those WERE once big names but they don't carry much weight outside of the antique collectors realm these days.

AGCO didn't "drop the ball in the US" . They bought a ball that didn't have much bounce and are slowly pumping the air back into that ball. Their US sales have grown steadily for the last 7 years. The switch to a single mainline brand is their plan to re-establish themselves.


When AGCO bought Allis Chalmers, they did so for an established dealer network more than a product line. Gleaner combines, however famous the name WAS, were at that point affectionately known in the AG world as "Silver seeders" because of their tendency to pass a lot of the grain on through the machine when they were used at speeds competitive with the market leaders of that time. They weren't all that great of a product at that point. Just a name. Allis Chalmers had a whopping 3.7% of the Ag tractor market in the US when the sale to AGCO took place. They didn't exactly buy into a gold mine there. White had a mind boggling 2.25% of the tractor market in the US. Even AC had them on the run. The "names" while once a big part of the ag scene, were history by that point in time.

Deere is dumping old, not-so-efficient dealerships, so is everyone. There are exactly THREE major AG based New Holland dealers in the entire state of Kentucky now. In the metro Louisville area, we have a New Holland dealer that doesn't even know what a baler is. They sell skid steers, back hoes, ect. And the occasional compact. Does that mean CNH is failing their customers? Nope! It means they just don't have much of a market base here any longer in the AG field.

The local MF dealer list is a little more impressive. I have 3 dealers with-in an hours drive, 11 MORE with-in a 2-1/2 hour drive. There's ONE AGCO dealership DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET from the closest MF dealership to me. They're in competition with each other and neither one is benifiting from that. The AGCO dealer is about to take on Kioti I understand. (must be an orange thing, huh?)

As far as AGCO being out of touch with the AG market, well, explain how they have TWO of the 4 biggest sellers in the combine market? (Out of 6 brands that sell substancial numbers in the US.) (Deere, CaseIH, Gleaner, Massey Ferguson, New Holland, Cat/Lexicon)

Deere, Kubota, CNH have big numbers of "units sold", but their numbers of AG tractors have diminished in recent years. There's several "up-starts" in the US that have cut into their numbers. Look at world wide AG tractor sales figures from any nuetral source and you'll find Massey Ferguson right there in the thick of things. They haven't really gone aggressively after the compact tractor market (yet) which gets a LOT of press, especially on this site, but in their bailywick, the AG market, AGCO is strong and successful as a company and to their shareholders.

While I respect your opinion, facts and figures dispute your claims. AGCO might not be really big in your corner of New York state, but they are one of the WORLDs strongest AG related manufacturers in that field.

 

[CDsdad]

FWJ, I agree streamlining into one major brand is more efficient from a marketing and financial standpoint. I also agree on your points about Agco's sales as far as AG related equipment. But I do think their stateside marketing leaves a bit to be desired. Granted, AG marketing is different than CUT marketing. Look at JD for CUT marketing. Kubota tries, but it's hard when your orange. No offense meant to Kubota owners, they build great CUTs. I won't keep going because it's been discussed here 100s of times. I do wish MF was a little more open, for lack of a better word, with their marketing.
I do really like my MF and feel like they'll be around a long time. I hope your right and they will pump some more air in the ball. I hope to need an AG tractor in the future and MF will probably be the first I look at. I also want an old tractor to restore, and if I can't find my dad his old Int'l 240, I'll be looking for an old 135.

 

[chh]

Well I believe Agco knows what it is doing. They have sent me several surveys over the years as I've bought new MF tractors(just traded #3 for #4 a few months ago). 3 tractors around at one time is enough. A couple where the usual relability, dealer support, ect.. type things and a couple where more on brand recognition, what would you do if your dealer was rebranded, how loyal are you to a certain brand,ect... That and press statements on MF branding lead me to think they do have a plan and a focus. I've seen Challengers and MF's(of course) locally. I have never seen an Agco dealer or a Fendt. Hesston is gradually being fazed out. New balers are logo's MF with Hesston series on smaller letters underneath. New Idea equipment is headed down the same road, if its not already gone. The last 2-3?? years you could get either a NI or a MF mower and they where identical. From what I was told at the dealerships this year there will only be MF mowers. They have done the research and are putting everything into the name they feel has the strongest brand recognition.IMO.
Of course that is not to say there won't be a few bumps along the way.

 

[spb1971]

MFRED said is about as accurate as can be. AGCO dealers were told in summer 2006 that the compact tractor segment would be focused around the Massey Ferguson brand. This does not mean that AGCO dealers will not have compacts. Basically, R&D and expansion efforts within the compact tractor offering will be on MF. This is in part to the number of MF dealers in the concentrated compact markets and MF's brand equity in smaller tractors.

As for the Dutch magazine article. Those statements were from a Global perspective. AGCO Brand is only sold in North America and will continue to be sold here. It is not and never has been sold in other countries. Therefore, it was not referenced in that article.

AGCO Brand will continue with a limited tractor line <100HP. They will continue to have a complete line of HHP models that are considered premium products. Hay equipment branded AGCO (still with the Hesston name attached - same as what Massey Ferguson is doing), tillage, planters and Gleaner combines.

Hopefully this information will stop the speculation of this thread.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Why did CNH drop the FARMALL name, why did they sell off the McCormick brand name? Did Fiat "drop the ball". Nope. Neither did AGCO when they decided to eliminate AC, White, ect. Those WERE once big names but they don't carry much weight outside of the antique collectors realm these days.

AGCO didn't "drop the ball in the US" . They bought a ball that didn't have much bounce and are slowly pumping the air back into that ball. Their US sales have grown steadily for the last 7 years. The switch to a single mainline brand is their plan to re-establish themselves.


When AGCO bought Allis Chalmers, they did so for an established dealer network more than a product line. Gleaner combines, however famous the name WAS, were at that point affectionately known in the AG world as "Silver seeders" because of their tendency to pass a lot of the grain on through the machine when they were used at speeds competitive with the market leaders of that time. They weren't all that great of a product at that point. Just a name. Allis Chalmers had a whopping 3.7% of the Ag tractor market in the US when the sale to AGCO took place. They didn't exactly buy into a gold mine there. White had a mind boggling 2.25% of the tractor market in the US. Even AC had them on the run. The "names" while once a big part of the ag scene, were history by that point in time.

Deere is dumping old, not-so-efficient dealerships, so is everyone. There are exactly THREE major AG based New Holland dealers in the entire state of Kentucky now. In the metro Louisville area, we have a New Holland dealer that doesn't even know what a baler is. They sell skid steers, back hoes, ect. And the occasional compact. Does that mean CNH is failing their customers? Nope! It means they just don't have much of a market base here any longer in the AG field.

The local MF dealer list is a little more impressive. I have 3 dealers with-in an hours drive, 11 MORE with-in a 2-1/2 hour drive. There's ONE AGCO dealership DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET from the closest MF dealership to me. They're in competition with each other and neither one is benifiting from that. The AGCO dealer is about to take on Kioti I understand. (must be an orange thing, huh?)

As far as AGCO being out of touch with the AG market, well, explain how they have TWO of the 4 biggest sellers in the combine market? (Out of 6 brands that sell substancial numbers in the US.) (Deere, CaseIH, Gleaner, Massey Ferguson, New Holland, Cat/Lexicon)

Deere, Kubota, CNH have big numbers of "units sold", but their numbers of AG tractors have diminished in recent years. There's several "up-starts" in the US that have cut into their numbers. Look at world wide AG tractor sales figures from any nuetral source and you'll find Massey Ferguson right there in the thick of things. They haven't really gone aggressively after the compact tractor market (yet) which gets a LOT of press, especially on this site, but in their bailywick, the AG market, AGCO is strong and successful.

While I respect your opinion, facts and figures dispute your claims. AGCO might not be really big in your corner of New York state, but they are one of the WORLDs strongest AG related manufacturers in that field.

Bill, please re-read my post. I did not say anything negative about Agco's products. They make great products and I would own one in a heart beat which is why I was glad my local dealer took on Agco (more so now that I am on the outs with my local NH dealer). What I disagree with is Agco's marketing. It is in my opinion poorly thought out.

While I do not know Internationals history as well as you I can not comment on International dropping the Farmall name. But they did that before I was born. When New Holland bought Case-IH they had to sell off the CX plant and Argo wanted the McCormick name. What you may not know is CNH only sold off the McCormick name to be used overseas. CNH retained all marketing rights for McCormick in the US where it has more history.

I have no problems with Agco dropping a brand. But it seems counter productive to be rebranding their products every few years. Ford sold their ag division to Fiat. Fiat wanted the Ford name but Ford only allowed them to use it for a few years while phasing in the New Holland brand. When Fiat/New Holland bought Case-IH they kept them as Case-IH. Same with Steyr. Three brands that all have their place. Case-IH is popular in North America, New Holland in the rest of the world and Stery is popular in Europe. What Case-New Holland screwed up with is naming their tractors. Only now are they finally getting that straight (well, I am not so sure they are on the Case-IH side but the NH side is). If Agco didn't forsee keeping the orange line of tractors why change the name from Agco-Allis to Agco only to drop it. I still disagree with their decision to create the Challenger line as I feel they should have bought the Cat tractors to give Massey Ferguson a 4wd again. Agco dropped the AgcoStar a while back so they needed a 4wd again and Cat gave them a great one. Paint them red so MF would finally have another 4wd again.

I see Fendt and Valtra being their own brands still but I do not know how long Valtra will fit in Agco's plans. Massey Ferguson should be the major brand for Agco and they should promote it that way.

As for dealers, I told you I had two Agco dealers, one is 20 minutes, the other is over an hour away and I have one MF dealer who use to be a good size dealer till the old guys passed away and the kids took over. That dealer is 30 minutes away. John Deere has 5 dealers within 1 hour drive that I know of and that is only in New York. Case-IH has 3-4 in New York (I am not too familiar with the dealers in PA), New Holland has 5-6 (one of which is in PA), CAT has none and there are no Challenger dealers either. My one Agco dealer is also a Valtra dealer and has been since before Agco bought them. This area is a large farming area and Massey Ferguson should be in this area as they have a nice fruit and vineyard tractor that would fit in well here with all the vineyards in my area as well as the Finger Lakes area. Plus there are a ton of dairy farms and huge vegetable farms and row crop farms. Western and Central New York is a major farming area for all types of farming which is why New Holland is so well represented here as they make a lot of great products that fit the types of farming we have here. John Deere does too and their dealer network shows that. Case-IH has not had as great a selection to meet the farming market here but since New Holland bought them they have been getting more models which fit New York farming so I would not be surprised to see the dealers here expand in the future. Agco should be here as Hesston is still popular in the hay industry and the dairy farms who want large square balers tend to prefer the Hesston baler over the New Holland. The Massey Ferguson lineup would easily match the New Holland lineup and you have no idea how bad I want a good Massey Ferguson dealer here. So if Agco wanted to push the MF brand they should have done away with Agco when they dropped the Agco-Allis brand or stopped signing new dealers on. Then my Agco dealer would have been a Massey Dealer and I would be happy. But as it is Agco seems to do something to irritate the farm community every five years. Just make up their minds and stop adding and dropping brands.