A Question for Sailors

[smstonypoint]

Let's gauge strength of opinion on this.

I am willing to make a $20 contribution to a charity of your choice if the official Navy findings indicate that the Fitzgerald and McCain collisions were caused by cyber attack.

If the official Navy findings indicate that the Fitzgerald and McCain collisions were not caused by cyber attack, you will make a $20 contribution to a charity of my choice.

The offer expires at 12:00 pm (EDT), 8/31/2017.

Any takers?

Steve

 

[bcp]

If the collisions were caused by cyber attack against the Navy ship, would the Navy admit it publicly?

If the collisions were caused by cyber attack against the merchant ship, would the Navy admit it publicly?

Bruce

 

[/pine]

The technology available to the public is probably at least 10 years behind what the military uses...(that's the way it's been with most modern technology advances)...i.e. for at least ten years the military had gps systems with pinpoint location accuracy...before it was available to private mariners etc...

Actually I was mostly referring to device firmware upgrades and not so much daily chart updates...

a lot of newer ships do not have conventional wheels...they have joysticks which are hardwired...so there are many way to use malicious computer code to disable anything that is "fly by wire"...just saying...

regular updates to mariners are published and broadcast every hour or so via fax,internet, VHF...

 

[RichM752]

Cyber attack? Really?
I retired two years ago, after 38 yrs in U.S. Merchant Marine. Traveled work wide,the last 24 yrs as officer in charge of navigational watch. One rule I followed and it served me well. If grey steer away. I rest my case.
Oh.....and looking out of the window always served a good purpose.

 

[smstonypoint]

Cyber attack? Really?
I retired two years ago, after 38 yrs in U.S. Merchant Marine. Traveled work wide,the last 24 yrs as officer in charge of navigational watch. One rule I followed and it served me well. If grey steer away. I rest my case.
Oh.....and looking out of the window always served a good purpose.

Rich,

How about the navigational skills of the Coast Guard?

Steve

 

[/pine]

Rich,

How about the navigational skills of the Coast Guard?

Steve

The collision happened where I'm in FL...I remember it well and passed the buoy marking the resting place many, many times (artificial reef) on the way to deeper fishing grounds...

USCGC Blackthorn (WLB-391) - Wikipedia

 

[smstonypoint]

The collision happened where I'm in FL...I remember it well and passed the buoy marking the resting place many, many times (artificial reef) on the way to deeper fishing grounds...

USCGC Blackthorn (WLB-391) - Wikipedia

And the grounding of the Sagebrush (USCGC Sagebrush (WLB-399) - Wikipedia) was mentioned earlier in this thread.

I recall a watch I served as QM under a new XO (a Lieutenant) aboard the Madrona, another buoy tender. As we approached a drawbridge, the XO inquired as to the horn blasts used to signal a request that the bridge be opened. I wondered at the time whether he was testing me or whether he didn't know.* Based on additional evidence, I came to the conclusion that he didn't know.

Steve

* I knew the answer then (50 years ago), but I would have to look it up now,

 

[buickanddeere]

Come to think of it , if a GPS jammer was used or worse yet a bogus GPS transmitter was used to purposely send the ships off course and into each other ..... Highschool kids with the proper equipment could built such jammers. Little different really than the radar jamming tech used on the EA-18Growler. Could be spooks from a foreign nation making a test run.
The military has taken a sudden interest recently in the 1980's and 1990's Loran systems. Not as accurate as GPS but simple and relatively jamming resistant .

 

[buickanddeere]

Officer on deck or not, isn't there supposed to be someone on watch looking around the ocean in the immediate vicinity of the ship ?

 

[/pine]

Come to think of it , if a GPS jammer was used or worse yet a bogus GPS transmitter was used to purposely send the ships off course and into each other ..... Highschool kids with the proper equipment could built such jammers. Little different really than the radar jamming tech used on the EA-18Growler. Could be spooks from a foreign nation making a test run.
The military has taken a sudden interest recently in the 1980's and 1990's Loran systems. Not as accurate as GPS but simple and relatively jamming resistant .

Now days most crucial navigation systems that use GPS have back up inertial systems...inertial systems do not need any outside data i.e., satellites, radio direction beacons etc., etc...as far as I know the military is fully invested in the inertial (back up) systems...

Obama killed the funding that kept LORAN C going which was always primarily a civilian use system...even after the chinese demonstrated they could take out all the GPS birds...

 

[turnkey4099]

He was actually relieved of command...which, for all intents and purposes, ends his career...but he'll still be able to retire with full pension and benefits.

And the way the articles read, it sounds like he may have already had his papers in the process.

 

[/pine]

And the grounding of the Sagebrush (USCGC Sagebrush (WLB-399) - Wikipedia) was mentioned earlier in this thread.

I recall a watch I served as QM under a new XO (a Lieutenant) aboard the Madrona, another buoy tender. As we approached a drawbridge, the XO inquired as to the horn blasts used to signal a request that the bridge be opened. I wondered at the time whether he was testing me or whether he didn't know.* Based on additional evidence, I came to the conclusion that he didn't know.

Steve

* I knew the answer then (50 years ago), but I would have to look it up now,

4 short?...always good to call ahead (channel 13 VHF) too...

 

[turnkey4099]

From what I've been able to study up on for the fitz it seems like it was dead in the water at the time of the collision with the tanker. To me as an outside, it appears the tanker disabled the fitz, turned around and rammed them.

How plausible is that?

Brett

Not even remotely, that's nothing but tinfoil hat territory.

 

[k0ua]

Not even remotely, that's nothing but tinfoil hat territory.

Or colander if you prefer.

 

[dmccarty]

I don't know if it is still the case, but back in the day, the National Coast and Geodetic Survey issued a Notice to Mariners publication on a regular basis. Quartermasters were responsible for updating any paper charts that were affected and we kept a log of those updates. Because my nautical experience has been confined to the Chesapeake Bay, the VA and NC coasts, and one voyage to Bermuda, I can't speak as to how international paper charts were updated. I don't remember whether the Notice to Mariners publication included non-US waters.

Steve

The US charts are still updated regularly, weekly for the Notice to Mariners, and best of all, it is "free." The charts can be downloaded in multiple formats including PDFs. Other countries charge quite a bit to get similar charts for their coverage areas. So we can get US charts for free but to get real paper one has to pay to have it printed or have a printer. Not really a big deal and so many people simply do not use paper charts any more. I get why they don't use paper charts but I don't like it.

Later,
Dan

 

[rustyshakelford]

Not even remotely, that's nothing but tinfoil hat territory.

Why do you say that? It's impossible or not likely? What are the chances that there's been 4 incidents with two being fatal preventable incidents? Buddy that was on navy ships somewhat recent said they had a port/stern and aft watch at all time with glass and nvg for night. I cannot comprehend how this happens and refuse to believe incompetence on behalf of the crew.

Brett

 

[dmccarty]

...
Obama killed the funding that kept LORAN C going which was always primarily a civilian use system...even after the chinese demonstrated they could take out all the GPS birds...

There is talk of reviving/updating LORAN and calling it eLORAN...

Cyber Threats Prompt Return of Radio for Ship Navigation – gCaptain

And the USN recently returned to teaching Celestial Navigation as a back up to GPS.

Later,
Dan

 

[smstonypoint]

Why do you say that? It's impossible or not likely? What are the chances that there's been 4 incidents with two being fatal preventable incidents? Buddy that was on navy ships somewhat recent said they had a port/stern and aft watch at all time with glass and nvg for night. I cannot comprehend how this happens and refuse to believe incompetence on behalf of the crew.

Brett

"Misunderstandings and neglect create more confusion in this world than trickery and malice. At any rate, the last two are certainly much less frequent."

Goethe

 

[TN8Man]

If the collisions were caused by cyber attack against the Navy ship, would the Navy admit it publicly?

If the collisions were caused by cyber attack against the merchant ship, would the Navy admit it publicly?

Bruce

Good point and not likely. Admission of a vulnerability on this level would be very bad for the Navy.