A Question for Sailors

[smstonypoint]

Yes but we are discussing a ship operated by sailors on board the vessel, not remotely operated drone aircraft or vessels.

Later,
Dan

And in a busy shipping lane and just after senior officers of the Fitzgerald were relieved of their duties for nonfeasance.

Steve

 

[smstonypoint]

I don't remember reading about this:

"Salamander recalled the 2007 incident when the destroyer USS Arleigh Burke ran aground at the entrance to the Chesapeake Bay in daylight because the navigational system had an input error and no one had looked out the window to confirm the ship's position.

"There's no bad computer bad radar that's going to substitute for you not looking out the bloody window," he said.

Why Are Navy Ships Colliding in the Pacific? Experts Weigh In | Military.com

Steve

 

[houstonscott]

Maybe the Senate oversight should step down along with the 3 Star. McCain.

 

[/pine]

If the real truth ever gets to the public...the ship will be decommissioned because mccain will be disgraced... I know a survivor and knew two other casualties personally that were serving on the USS Forestall...most of the actual witnesses to what actually caused the missile/fire perished...and the story was covered up big time because of mccain's father...!

And FWIW...my late father was also a POW and all his living POW colleagues say that mccain fits the same type personality that were snitches and got special treatment...rank usually had nothing to do with getting cigarettes and sugar etc...

 

[TN8Man]

Yes but we are discussing a ship operated by sailors on board the vessel, not remotely operated drone aircraft or vessels.

Later,
Dan

The discussion is about the collisions between US Naval and merchant vessels and what could be the cause. I'm saying vessels can be controlled remotely, just like aircraft and vehicles and all are subject to cyber hacking. It's been reported that the merchant vessel was operating under autopilot (remote control). If cyber hacking was at play then it was probably done to the merchant vessel. The crew on the Navy vessel could also be at fault because they did not follow proper procedures that could have prevented the collision regardless of the merchant vessels intent.

 

[houstonscott]

The discussion is about the collisions between US Naval and merchant vessels and what could be the cause. I'm saying vessels can be controlled remotely, just like aircraft and vehicles and all are subject to cyber hacking. It's been reported that the merchant vessel was operating under autopilot (remote control). If cyber hacking was at play then it was probably done to the merchant vessel. The crew on the Navy vessel could also be at fault because they did not follow proper procedures that could have prevented the collision regardless of the merchant vessels intent.

You understand then that there are many rules that apply here... Crossing, channel 13, narrow channel, draft, manning, extremis.... Lots... Steering getting hacked is tin foil hat stuff.... And is not in the conversation.... Steering sabotage is possible, and so are bridge communications, and a helmsman error or intentional error. Anyone here have OOD quails on 1000+ ton naval experience, been to USN safe ship handling school, (requirements for the CO), or have 10 years experience as a VTS supervisor. ? What do you want to know, or ask, I can give you the answer.

 

[smstonypoint]

Steering getting hacked is tin foil hat stuff...........

Cyber warfare is not a tin foil conspiracy theory............

From my perspective, the question is whether it is even possible for the steering of the McCain to be "hacked," not whether cyber warfare exists.

Steve

 

[houstonscott]

From my perspective, the question is whether it is even possible for the steering of the McCain to be "hacked," not whether cyber warfare exists. Steve

The question is if that's a reasonable cause. Answer NO. Next question.

 

[TN8Man]

From my perspective, the question is whether it is even possible for the steering of the McCain to be "hacked," not whether cyber warfare exists.

Steve

You don't have to control the steering directly of a ship. For example, manipulation or spoofing of GPS signals, including secured military GPS, can produce the same results.

Securing military GPS from spoofing and jamming vulnerabilities

 

[TN8Man]

But the reports I have read indicate that the McCain lost steering control temporarily, leading to the collision.

Steve

I've read reports that a cruise missile hit the Pentagon on 9/11/2001, do those reports mean it was true?

No one here really knows what actually happened to these Navy ships. All we can do is speculate.

 

[smstonypoint]

You don't have to control the steering directly of a ship. For example, manipulation or spoofing of GPS signals, including secured military GPS, can produce the same results.

Securing military GPS from spoofing and jamming vulnerabilities

But the reports I have read indicate the McCain lost steering control temporarily, leading to the collision. I haven't read anything to indicate that they (the responsible McCain officers) didn't know where they were at or couldn't see (by eye or radar or AIS) the other vessel.

Steve

 

[dmccarty]

A lot of navigation and communication devices (computers) get regular and issue based firmware upgrades...every time an electronic ocean chart is updated navigation software also has to be updated...it's an ongoing and regular occurrence...there are lots of ways to corrupt software and or plant malicious code...and it could possibly be done from several different levels of contact...

They SHOULD get updated but from what I have seen and read regarding private vessels, upgrades are not being performed very often, especially for charts, because for most of the world one has to pay for the charts and they are expensive. This was true with paper charts as well. I seriously doubt many people upgrade their navigation software for two reasons, one the companies are not providing updates that often, especially for security patches, and two, people don't know or care to update.

If one is upgrading it should be from the company who built the hardware/software which minimizes the chances of an infection. But lets say an infection did occur. How so the virus know when to make the vessel suddenly turn one way or the other to hit another vessel or run aground? The auto pilot would have to be engaged, the radar and/or AIS tracks would have to be on the chart plotter AND the auto pilot has to be attached to the chart plotter so the virus can figure out know is the time to turn.... Of course the virus has to be written for that very specific chart plotter software.

If someone is at the helm, all they have to do is turn off the auto pilot which is quick and easy to do. But this is for the technology on small vessels. I have never heard of a USN ship using an auto pilot, they always seem to have someone at the helm.

Later,
Dan

 

[rustyshakelford]

Yeah, now do you want to talk about this collision and what causes them.

From what I've been able to study up on for the fitz it seems like it was dead in the water at the time of the collision with the tanker. To me as an outside, it appears the tanker disabled the fitz, turned around and rammed them.

How plausible is that?

Brett

 

[TN8Man]

But the reports I have read indicate the McCain lost steering control temporarily, leading to the collision. I haven't read anything to indicate that they (the responsible McCain officers) didn't know where they were at or couldn't see (by eye or radar or AIS) the other vessel.

Steve

Did the reports you read also say the USS McCain had a back-up steering system but they did not use it? Did it say the USS McCain ran into the merchant vessel?

Look at the damage to the USS McCain. Who ran into who?



Official: USS John McCain Lost Steering Control Before Crash

A U.S. Navy official said Monday that the USS John S. McCain suffered a steering malfunction prior to its crash near Singapore on Sunday, CNN reports. The official said it was not yet clear why the warship’s backup steering systems weren’t utilized to regain control before it ran into a merchant vessel. The latest detail came as search and rescue operations were ongoing for 10 sailors who went missing in the crash. Five other service members were injured in the accident. The collision of the guided-missile destroyer marks the fourth accident involving a U.S. warship in recent months. The U.S. Navy has ordered an investigation into the collision and its entire Pacific fleet as a result of the crash, as well as a one-day “operational pause” to take place at the discretion of commanders over the next few weeks.

What is real news (reports) and what is fake news?

 

[houstonscott]

From what I've been able to study up on for the fitz it seems like it was dead in the water at the time of the collision with the tanker. To me as an outside, it appears the tanker disabled the fitz, turned around and rammed them. How plausible is that? Brett

Not plausible, zero.

 

[smstonypoint]

They SHOULD get updated but from what I have seen and read regarding private vessels, upgrades are not being performed very often, especially for charts, because for most of the world one has to pay for the charts and they are expensive. This was true with paper charts as well. I seriously doubt many people upgrade their navigation software for two reasons, one the companies are not providing updates that often, especially for security patches, and two, people don't know or care to update.
Later,
Dan

I don't know if it is still the case, but back in the day, the National Coast and Geodetic Survey issued a Notice to Mariners publication on a regular basis. Quartermasters were responsible for updating any paper charts that were affected and we kept a log of those updates. Because my nautical experience has been confined to the Chesapeake Bay, the VA and NC coasts, and one voyage to Bermuda, I can't speak as to how international paper charts were updated. I don't remember whether the Notice to Mariners publication included non-US waters.

Steve

 

[smstonypoint]

Did the reports you read also say the USS McCain had a back-up steering system but they did not use it? Did it say the USS McCain ran into the merchant vessel?

Look at the damage to the USS McCain. Who ran into who?

View attachment 519692

Official: USS John McCain Lost Steering Control Before Crash

A U.S. Navy official said Monday that the USS John S. McCain suffered a steering malfunction prior to its crash near Singapore on Sunday, CNN reports. The official said it was not yet clear why the warship痴 backup steering systems weren稚 utilized to regain control before it ran into a merchant vessel. The latest detail came as search and rescue operations were ongoing for 10 sailors who went missing in the crash. Five other service members were injured in the accident. The collision of the guided-missile destroyer marks the fourth accident involving a U.S. warship in recent months. The U.S. Navy has ordered an investigation into the collision and its entire Pacific fleet as a result of the crash, as well as a one-day 登perational pause to take place at the discretion of commanders over the next few weeks.

What is real news (reports) and what is fake news?

I read this:

The McCain suffered a steering failure as the warship was beginning its approach into the Strait of Malacca, causing it to collide with a commercial tanker, a Navy official told CNN.
The official said it was unclear why the crew couldn't use the ship's backup steering systems to maintain control.
Earlier, another US Navy official told CNN there were indications the destroyer experienced a loss of steering right before the collision, but steering had been regained afterward.

USS John McCain: 'Some remains' of missing 1 sailors found after collision - CNNPolitics

I also understand that vessels with two screws (propellers) can be maneuvered even without steering via rudders, and that a Navy destroyer is faster than a merchant vessel.

Steve

 

[TN8Man]

I read this:



I also understand that vessels with two propellers can be maneuvered even without steering via rudders, and that a Navy destroyer is faster than a merchant vessel.

Steve

CNN and another unnamed source? This is what I was talking about. The information we have access too lacks credibility. Show me those statements directly from a named Navy spokesman official.