A Question for Sailors

[PILOON]

One theory,
As with aircraft, the navy has electronic 'cloaking' that makes them invisible to radar.
Is it possible that the ships were invisible to the tankers radar? (like the cloaking was switched on)

Another possibility is some sort of 'malware' or virus.
I read that many industrial software run systems (hydro and hospitals, ex) are basically still on Win 3 software.
Is the navy on latest software? with latest protections?

 

[smstonypoint]

Wow!!

There are about 60 "incidents" a year.

I'm guessing in the Straits alone. I think I read somewhere that a "maritime incident" occurs at an average rate of once per day worldwide.

Steve

 

[smstonypoint]

<snip>
I also find it no coincidence that the 222 to 225 Mhz band was give to the United Parcel Service a few years ago by the US government. This was a plot to "farm out" the mind reading and control task to the private sector, in this case megalith of the UPS. You can find this just a coincidence if you want to, just as easily as you may dismiss pallets stacked in an inverted V configuration, but I for one see a pattern forming here.

With tongue firmly planted in cheek, your friend, James.

James,

Because I think of you as a friend, I will refrain from pointing out that I think you meant to write "monolith" ("a large and impersonal political, corporate, or social structure regarded as intractably indivisible and uniform") rather than "megalith" ("a large stone that forms a prehistoric monument or part of one").

Steve

 

[Wagtail]

James,

Because I think of you as a friend, I will refrain from pointing out that I think you meant to write "monolith" ("a large and impersonal political, corporate, or social structure regarded as intractably indivisible and uniform") rather than "megalith" ("a large stone that forms a prehistoric monument or part of one").

Steve

Steve, James did invoke the mystical incantation "pallets stacked in an inverted V" which would, naturally, call forth the megalithic formation known as Pallethenge.

It's a rookie mistake for a Pallet Pantheist, but understandable.

 

[Spanner]

Well I've been lurking in this thread and enjoying the Marine Traffic" website someone posted. Followed the re-float of the ship that ran aground, "Toured" the world looking at places I've been and seeing just what movements, which ships and where bound. I've lost several days of my week...

Anyway, the recent incidents involving US Navy craft may be 'accidents', 'incidents' or 'occasions for concern'. Sadly people have died and the latest casualty appears to be the Admiral of that Fleet. Sacked mere months before retirement. Just heard that on our radio news. No doubt there will be a web-news link shortly.

 

[smstonypoint]

Anyway, the recent incidents involving US Navy craft may be 'accidents', 'incidents' or 'occasions for concern'. Sadly people have died and the latest casualty appears to be the Admiral of that Fleet. Sacked mere months before retirement. Just heard that on our radio news. No doubt there will be a web-news link shortly.

The loss of life is indeed sad.

Here's a link for the latest news. US Navy 7th Fleet commander dismissed, Navy says - CNNPolitics

Steve

 

[dmccarty]

Are you saying there is a possibility, however remote that the steering system of the McCain was hacked? I am looking for the aluminum colander to put on my head now...

No, I am not saying that the McCain was hacked. I don't know how the DDG steering is controlled but I would be shocked if it can be remotely hacked. If the USN has built ships that can be hacked so that their steering fails there should be many heads rolling.

However, private vessels using modern chart plotters, radars, auto pilots, etc., are most certainly vulnerable to hacking including taking over steering. I would hope that this is just a vulnerability in the private boat sector but it would not surprise me that there are vulnerabilities in commercial shipping as well. Certainly, with the push to have robot ships, the risk of hacking is very real.

I see what technologies are being developed for the private boat world and I can see how someone who is used to having multiple devices connected via LAN or Wifi would want to do the same on a boat but me thinks these technologies are exposing critical equipment to hacking. Some things do not need to be, and should not be, connected to the Internet. Any Internet connection needs to be controlled and minimized but the equipment suppliers are selling all of this wiz bang cool stuff to be WiFi enabled and it is worrisome. Some of it might be ok but given what I know about system security, how hard it is to get software even sorta secure AND THEN MAINTAIN that level of security, I do not have much confidence that these companies have the skills, people, and systems to secure and maintain the security of their devices. If the devices are not connected to the Internet, then one drastically reduces the risk of a security issue.

But I just don't see how the USN would have built ships that could be hacked via software that would allow steering to be taken over.

Ships do loose steering and/or the crew make mistakes. A large container ship ran aground near Antwerp this month when it "missed" making a turn. The AIS track shows the ship maintain it's heading right into shore. :shocked: One would think the ships Captain was on the bridge when this happened as well as a pilot so you have to scratch your head how this happened. I did not see any mention of steering issues but it is hard to believe the pilot and Captain just drove the ship into shore... :confused3:

Later,
Dan

 

[k0ua]

James,

Because I think of you as a friend, I will refrain from pointing out that I think you meant to write "monolith" ("a large and impersonal political, corporate, or social structure regarded as intractably indivisible and uniform") rather than "megalith" ("a large stone that forms a prehistoric monument or part of one").

Steve

Yeah, I might have messed that up. But the whole rant was just useless word salad all for fun.

 

[k0ua]

Yeah, just how does a captain drive a ship onto the shore?. "all back full!". "hard-a-port". All those commands must not work any more. Over 100 years ago back in 1912, a bridge officer drive the worlds biggest ship at the time into sideswiping a really big iceberg. But radar had not been invented, there was no wind to make swells at the base of the iceberg, it was pretty dark, and the lookouts in the crows nest didn't have their binoculars because an officer had gotten off of the ship in France and he had the key to the binocular locker. The did try to take evasive action to "port around" the berg and they reversed one screw to try to help the turn, but the rudder was really too small to make the ship turn fast. It was just not designed to do so.. So you all know how the story ends, the ship sunk in a couple of hours, and lotsa people died. But at least they tried to not hit that friggin iceberg.

 

[smstonypoint]

Yeah, I might have messed that up. But the whole rant was just useless word salad all for fun.

I realized that and I had a good laugh.

Steve

 

[smstonypoint]

No, I am not saying that the McCain was hacked. I don't know how the DDG steering is controlled but I would be shocked if it can be remotely hacked. If the USN has built ships that can be hacked so that their steering fails there should be many heads rolling.
Later,
Dan

I haven't been able to find any info on steering control in modern destroyers, but I read this:

A ship's wheel or boat's wheel is a device used aboard a water vessel to change that vessel's course. Together with the rest of the steering mechanism, it forms part of the helm. It is connected to a mechanical, electric servo, or hydraulic system which alters the vertical angle of the vessel's rudder relative to its hull. In some modern ships the wheel is replaced with a simple toggle that remotely controls an electro-mechanical or electro-hydraulic drive for the rudder, with a rudder position indicator presenting feedback to the helmsman.

Source -- Ship's wheel - Wikipedia

If modern destroyer steering is either by an electro-mechanical or by an electro-hydraulic drive, it seems to me that any "hacK" would have to shutdown the ship's electrical system. Of course, I don't know anything about electro-mechanical or electro-hydraulic drives.

Steve

 

[k0ua]

Steve, James did invoke the mystical incantation "pallets stacked in an inverted V" which would, naturally, call forth the megalithic formation known as Pallethenge.

It's a rookie mistake for a Pallet Pantheist, but understandable.

Pallet Pantheist eh?. I am not sure but I may have just been called a dirty name.!:shocked:

 

[RoyJackson]

...the latest casualty appears to be the Admiral of that Fleet. Sacked mere months before retirement. Just heard that on our radio news. No doubt there will be a web-news link shortly.

He was actually relieved of command...which, for all intents and purposes, ends his career...but he'll still be able to retire with full pension and benefits.

 

[TN8Man]

No, I am not saying that the McCain was hacked. I don't know how the DDG steering is controlled but I would be shocked if it can be remotely hacked. If the USN has built ships that can be hacked so that their steering fails there should be many heads rolling.

However, private vessels using modern chart plotters, radars, auto pilots, etc., are most certainly vulnerable to hacking including taking over steering. I would hope that this is just a vulnerability in the private boat sector but it would not surprise me that there are vulnerabilities in commercial shipping as well. Certainly, with the push to have robot ships, the risk of hacking is very real.

I see what technologies are being developed for the private boat world and I can see how someone who is used to having multiple devices connected via LAN or Wifi would want to do the same on a boat but me thinks these technologies are exposing critical equipment to hacking. Some things do not need to be, and should not be, connected to the Internet. Any Internet connection needs to be controlled and minimized but the equipment suppliers are selling all of this wiz bang cool stuff to be WiFi enabled and it is worrisome. Some of it might be ok but given what I know about system security, how hard it is to get software even sorta secure AND THEN MAINTAIN that level of security, I do not have much confidence that these companies have the skills, people, and systems to secure and maintain the security of their devices. If the devices are not connected to the Internet, then one drastically reduces the risk of a security issue.

But I just don't see how the USN would have built ships that could be hacked via software that would allow steering to be taken over.

Ships do loose steering and/or the crew make mistakes. A large container ship ran aground near Antwerp this month when it "missed" making a turn. The AIS track shows the ship maintain it's heading right into shore. :shocked: One would think the ships Captain was on the bridge when this happened as well as a pilot so you have to scratch your head how this happened. I did not see any mention of steering issues but it is hard to believe the pilot and Captain just drove the ship into shore... :confused3:

Later,
Dan

Some commercial and military Aircraft can be controlled remotely and potentially vulnerable to hacking. Same goes for some motor vehicles.

 

[dmccarty]

Yeah, I might have messed that up. But the whole rant was just useless word salad all for fun.

James....

Shhhhhhh....... <Dan Looks Over His Shoulder Multiple Times>

I think Rascally Stony is stalking you.... Just say'n....

:shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

...
If modern destroyer steering is either by an electro-mechanical or by an electro-hydraulic drive, it seems to me that any "hacK" would have to shutdown the ship's electrical system. Of course, I don't know anything about electro-mechanical or electro-hydraulic drives.

Steve

The small boat systems I know about are hydraulic or a mechanical linkage from the rudder to the helm. With a non wind vane auto pilot, it would be fair to call them electro-mechanical or electro-hydraulic when using an auto pilot. The auto pilot can be turned off by hitting a switch or just taking the wheel.

One can connect the auto pilot to the chart plotter which I think is a bad idea since you want the crew to be paying attention to the course of the vessel and changing the auto pilot course as needed. One could connect the two devices so that the auto pilot would follow way points set in the chart plotter, and I think many people do this, but I think it is asking for trouble.

IF one connected the chart plotter and auto pilot then it would be possible to hack a course change. BUT it is not easy at all.

• First of all the chart plotter, attached to the auto pilot, would have to be connected to an active WiFi network operating on the boat.
• An attacker would have to be close enough to the boats WiFi network so they could see the network.
• Assuming one has setup some security, the attacker then has to hack to get on to the WiFi.
• Now the attacker has to have a playbook of known vulnerabilities of the particular chart plotter the boat is using.
• The attacker then has to try out these attacks to see if they work.
• Once getting access, the attacker then has to wait for the perfect moment to cause the vessel to run aground, turn to get hit by another vessel, turn to hit another vessel, stop, whatever.

All of the above will take some time and some luck.

All of the above can be avoided if the auto pilot and chart plotter are disconnected from a network. No network, then how is the off ship attacker accessing the systems?

As best I know the USN is not using auto pilots. They have a real Mark I Human at the helm.

Later,
Dan

 

[smstonypoint]

James....

Shhhhhhh....... <Dan Looks Over His Shoulder Multiple Times>

I think Rascally Stony is stalking you.... Just say'n....

:shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Later,
Dan

James did make much ado about catching one of my typos, not that it matters that much to me.

Steve

 

[dmccarty]

Some commercial and military Aircraft can be controlled remotely and potentially vulnerable to hacking. Same goes for some motor vehicles.

Yes but we are discussing a ship operated by sailors on board the vessel, not remotely operated drone aircraft or vessels.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

James did make much ado about catching one of my typos, not that it matters that much to me.

Steve

Yes, I noticed how you "refrained" from correcting his word usage.

:shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[/pine]

A lot of navigation and communication devices (computers) get regular and issue based firmware upgrades...every time an electronic ocean chart is updated navigation software also has to be updated...it's an ongoing and regular occurrence...there are lots of ways to corrupt software and or plant malicious code...and it could possibly be done from several different levels of contact...