A Question for Contractors

[CurlyDave]

In Oregon the law requires a contractor to give a one year warranty on a new house. Our house was finished in November of 2007.

We have a deck on the second floor, which I had finished in tile. Special, outdoor porcelain tile. Before the tile contractor installed it, I told him that this was going to be the harshest environment he had ever seen, because there is no roof over the deck and the tile is exposed to the winter sky at night and gets very cold, and then exposed to the afternoon sun in summer and gets very hot.

Well, by June of 2008 about 1/3 of the tiles had loosened and come up, as well as all of the grout had failed.

The contractor came out with his adult son, and spent a week and a day resetting all of the tile & grout last fall. Didn't charge me anything. Before he started fixing it, I told him again how hard this installation was.

I noticed a week or so ago, the tile is failing again, not as bad as before, but
~10% of the tiles are loose this time.

He is coming out tomorrow and I know he will work with me on fixing the job. The real question is not even should I offer to pay him, but how much should I pay him? Times are tough now, and I know he is low on work. OTOH, I warned him how hard this installation was -- twice.

I am sort of thinking I should offer to cover all his materials and something more for his time. I don't think I should have to pay full price, since he never did it right to start with, but if I starve him out of business that isn't a good solution either.

What percent of his usual rate do you guys think is fair?

 

[WarrenF]

Dave:

Here is what comes to mind when reading your post. First of all, is it really possible to have your deck tiled and have no expectation of it failing? Sometimes, and I am not suggesting you did this, the homeowner wants something so badly they will not listen to any warnings or suggestions of what will or will not work.

Another area to explore, does the material manufacturer have a warranty on their product. You might offer to go to bat for the contractor and find out why the grouting keeps failing. I am also wondering as well, if you can get a real honest answer....did/does the deck have the proper base to it. I keep thinking perhaps the base the tile is laid on, might have to much flex in it and that may be a cause of the failure. Your tile contractor might not be telling you that, because he wants more work from the original contractor.....you know to keep eating.

I guess what I am saying is....I don't know what you should offer to pay....I just know that in your situation you can draw more flies with honey. It is my opinion you really need to get "behind" the obvious and get real answers.

 

[tommu56]

Dave it soundsl ike the tile is ok more like the morterbed or the grout is the issue.
I'v never put tile in but watched it done and they allways put a pan in to catch leaks in a shower so if water gets in through in an shower it I can't see why it wouldent get through in an porch and if it freezes something has to give.

tom

 

[EddieWalker]

Hi Dave,

I personally would refuse any compensation on warranty that I did if I did it the way I thought it should be done. I've had a few surprises and had to go back to fix things, and I'm sure it will happen again. I'm more embarrassed that it didn't work the first time, then I am concerned about getting paid for my time.

With regards to your situation, I'm curious about what the tile is attached to? Tile is known to hold up to outdoor applications for hundreds of years. It handles constant moisture in bathrooms, and fountains all over the world. Thinset mortar is pretty good stuff and not affected by cold, heat or moisture.

Movement is the only reason that it would fail that I'm aware of. How much movement is there and why is there movement? Homes move around quite a bit, and a deck on a second level floor is going to be all over the place.

I've seen people install Hardi backerboard with nails. For your application, I'm thinking screws would be mandatory. I'd also wonder about what's under the Hardi backerboard? Is it 3/4 T&G plywood? And what's under the plywood? What are the spacings of the floor joists?

If all of that was done, then I find it very hard to understand why the tile is coming off. I think that a step was skipped along the way, or the possibility for movement wasn't addressed to the degree it needs to be.

In your situation, with very little information, I don't know if it's the tile installers fault or not. He probably doesn't have a clue about framing, decking or racking of a building. Like most subs, he knows his trade, but has very little knowledge of the rest of the building. If he's doing everything right, but the second level flooring isn't properly built, then I don't think he's obligated to do anything, and in fact, shouldn't have done it for free the last time. Warranty work only applies to what he did, if he did it wrong. Of course, finding the cause of the problem is always the most difficult part of any repair. The next most difficult part is to get the person responsible to fix it!!!! LOL

Eddie

 

[Bedlam]

Eddie, from this and other posts ,I can tell you you appear to be a very honest and conscientious person. Maybe I see this because of the contractor that I have worked for a few years ago. I simply couldn't take the dis-honesty or shoddy workmanship as well as the outright fraud and thefts for the box stores.So I left.cut out my meal ticket but sleep well at night.
People with your attitude would sure be welcome. round my parts.
Just wanted to slip this in not to de rail the thread. As its an interesting one for me. And Curly seems like he isn't one of those customers that is a PITA..

 

[schmism]

Id go for the pizza and (after the job is over) beer payment thing.

keeps the workers happy, you can say you never "paied" for warrentee work persay but everyone comes out happy. The workers cause they got a little extra, you because you didnt feel like your ripping off the guy.

 

[orezok]

Dave - as a licensed contractor for 30 years and currently managing $150M of work for my school district, I can tell you that tiles installed over a wood structure will usually have a less than desirable outcome. Unless the deck is heavily framed and has at least 1 1/2" of light weight concrete on it, the tile will continue to fail.

I give your contractor credit for standing behind HIS work, but I believe the culprit is the sub-structure.

I think if he repairs it again you are only delaying the inevitable.

 

[CurlyDave]

OK, more information coming.

The house sits square to the points of the compass. The deck wraps around the house. On the north side it is 100' long and 10 feet wide. On the East it is 10' wide by 20' long, and on the West it is 10' wide by 40' long. The side by the house is held up by the structure of the house, the outboard side is held up by posts. The headers are Glulam beams. From memory they are 14" x 5 1/4" on the north and east, where the post spacing is 20', and 18" x 5 1/4" on the west where there is a 30' span from post to post to allow unobstructed access to the garage.

Spanning from house to header is mostly 12" BCIs, although there were some 2" x 12" boards at corners. There is an OSB deck over the joists.

I told the contractor that the deck had to be waterproof and fireproof. Waterproof so it would act as a roof for the patio underneath, and fireproof because I wanted to put a grill on it, and I didn't want the deck to burn if I dropped a piece of flaming chicken on it. Tile was the contractor's idea, although I readily agreed, and couldn't think of much else that would be both waterproof and fireproof.

The tile contractor floated about 1" of mortar over the OSB, painted it with with 3 coats of something called "Redguard" to waterproof it and then laid more mortar and tiles on it.

The tile was 18" squares of a porcelain material with an ADA-approved surface finish for traction under wet conditions. At the time, ADA-approved tile was not very common, and choices were limited. The tile itself is not failing, it is the grout and the mortar holding the tile down.

The tile subcontractor saw the structure before he bid. I told him that it would be the hardest installation he had ever done, because there is no roof over the tile deck and it is subject to extreme temperature variation.

I realize the wooden sub-structure is not ideal, but the contractor saw it with his own eyes before he bid the job, and he thought he could do it.

The contractor selected the float, grout and mortar materials, and agreed that the tile we selected was high enough quality. The porcelain tile is actually at the very high end of the market.

If he were a big business, I would insist that the contractor keep replacing the grout and mortar until he got it right, but he is independent, and construction has been dead for the past 18 months. If I force him out of business, no one benefits.

 

[orezok]

OK, more information coming.

The house sits square to the points of the compass. The deck wraps around the house. On the north side it is 100' long and 10 feet wide. On the East it is 10' wide by 20' long, and on the West it is 10' wide by 40' long. The side by the house is held up by the structure of the house, the outboard side is held up by posts. The headers are Glulam beams. From memory they are 14" x 5 1/4" on the north and east, where the post spacing is 20', and 18" x 5 1/4" on the west where there is a 30' span from post to post to allow unobstructed access to the garage.

Spanning from house to header is mostly 12" BCIs, although there were some 2" x 12" boards at corners. There is an OSB deck over the joists.

I told the contractor that the deck had to be waterproof and fireproof. Waterproof so it would act as a roof for the patio underneath, and fireproof because I wanted to put a grill on it, and I didn't want the deck to burn if I dropped a piece of flaming chicken on it. Tile was the contractor's idea, although I readily agreed, and couldn't think of much else that would be both waterproof and fireproof.

The tile contractor floated about 1" of mortar over the OSB, painted it with with 3 coats of something called "Redguard" to waterproof it and then laid more mortar and tiles on it.

The tile was 18" squares of a porcelain material with an ADA-approved surface finish for traction under wet conditions. At the time, ADA-approved tile was not very common, and choices were limited. The tile itself is not failing, it is the grout and the mortar holding the tile down.

The tile subcontractor saw the structure before he bid. I told him that it would be the hardest installation he had ever done, because there is no roof over the tile deck and it is subject to extreme temperature variation.

I realize the wooden sub-structure is not ideal, but the contractor saw it with his own eyes before he bid the job, and he thought he could do it.

The contractor selected the float, grout and mortar materials, and agreed that the tile we selected was high enough quality. The porcelain tile is actually at the very high end of the market.

If he were a big business, I would insist that the contractor keep replacing the grout and mortar until he got it right, but he is independent, and construction has been dead for the past 18 months. If I force him out of business, no one benefits.

It sounds like they did about a substantial framing job as possible. If I had to guess, I would say that the house side of the deck is restrained by the house structure (shear walls and climate controlled) but the outside edge is free to float and expand/contract with changes in temperature. Did the contractor install any expansion joints or is this one continuous deck?

 

[EddieWalker]

Dave,

As usual with you, it sounds over built and well thought out. You are into an area that's over my head and experience. Something is wrong, and I think it's too much movement. Since the tile guy saw this beforehand and took steps to eliminate it, I agree that it's on his dime to fix it. Unfortunately, allot of the times, this is when they stop answering their phones and disappear on you. Hope he sticks around and figures it out.

I know that if anybody comes to me with a job like this, I'm going to have to think very carefully and hard about how to make sure it's right. The variables in it are pretty severe.

Good luck,
Eddie

PS. Thanks Bedlam. My philosophy is pretty simple. I don't do anything that I'm going to have to lie about or be ashamed of. If I do it, then I'm able to talk about it. It doesn't matter if it's work or personal. I made enough mistakes in my past to know what it's like to be ashamed of something, so I just don't do things like that anymore. Not drinking has really helped in this too!!! LOL

 

[scott_vt]

Dave,

Something is wrong, and I think it's too much movement. Since the tile guy saw this beforehand and took steps to eliminate it, I agree that it's on his dime to fix it. Unfortunately, allot of the times, this is when they stop answering their phones and disappear on you. Hope he sticks around and figures it out.

Good luck,
Eddie

Good Afternoon Dave,
Im not an engineer or even a contractor, but my bet is with Eddies', too much movement ! What needs to be done to that deck to negate the movement, expansion/contraction, that are destroying the tiles ability to adhere to the mortar.

Im sure you as an engineer, have the necessary backround to do the calculations on how much movement can occur before failure occurs. Maybe you have done this allready, but I have to think thats the problem.

 

[JB4310]

I didn't read every detail that you gave, but sounds like this will be an on going event. do you have any expansion/control joints? A continuous bond of anything in or of mortar would need a control joint every 10-15 ft or so in that application IMO, to agree with Orezok, Eddie and Scotty.

100 ft long cement based floor surface could not and should not be expected to stay monolithic. There has to be stress relief, either man made or from within.

As far as how you should compensate the contractor, that's a tough one, to many variables, like who speced the job etc. Here in CT there is also a 1 year warranty, builder can still be responsible for problems after 1 year as long as the problem was documented within that first year.
By him fixing it once, then having it fail again after the year was up, not sure how that would be viewed by an arbitrator in terms of responsibility, if he fixed the original problem when notified of it.

JB.

 

[tommu56]

Dave I googled 都etting ceramic tile outside deck freezing

Some of these links looked good.

Especially the Schluter / Dira site.

TI-ProBoard - WaterProof membrane Board System Distributes by TileDepot.US

Schluter-DITRA - Schluter-Systems

Tile outside?? [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Tile Patios and Decks

YouTube - Ceramic Tile Installation with Schluter Ditra

http://www.proconweb.com/pdfs/publications/Plazas___Roof_Decks.pdf

Tile Troubleshooting:<br />Tiling Over Exterior Balconies and Decks ? Risk or Reward? - Feature Articles - TILE Magazine

http://www.tiproboard.com/pdf/tile_diy_brochure.pdf


tom

 

[CurlyDave]

The tile guy came out this morning and the biggest deal is that he views this as his responsibility. Essentially he feels that he should get the tile right, even if he has to pull it all up and reset all of it.

The first time he put it down, there were no expansion joints. The second time he ran a line of flexible polyurethane material in place of grout ever ten feet. It came in a tube like caulk, and was a real pain to use--masking tape on all the tile edges. Talking it over this morning, he mentioned that last fall he had called his supplier of mortar and grout, an outfit called Mapei, and used the products they had recommended for this application.

I remember that he had done this last year. After he left, he called Mapei again today, and at this point, their tech rep says that about the only thing to do is to reset the tile, using no grout, only the flexible polyurethane at every joint.

We both think that this is more of a thermal expansion issue than the wood beneath the deck racking or moving.

The only problem is that last time, he used 15 or 16 tubes @ $16 each. This time he is going to need more than 100, maybe approaching 200.

He is doing his best to be a responsible contractor, and because of this I think I should be a "responsible customer". What I mean by that is when a significant cost overrun happens due to an unforeseen problem, I need to share the cost overrun. So I am going to buy the materials. His part of it is to get on the phone with his supplier and negotiate a better price for the mortar and grout, by pleading poverty, getting a volume discount, and pointing out that the material he bought and paid for at their recommendation last time didn't work.

He is coming out again tomorrow to measure and determine how much material he needs. We will talk about scheduling then.

I am fortunate in that he has ethics like Eddie -- embarrassed when something he builds doesn't work out. As far as helping him with materials right now goes, I recognize that if he walks away it is going to cost me a lot more than helping him fix it now. Essentially he is putting in all the labor free.

 

[EddieWalker]

Dave,

I've always been a big fan of your posts because you are a straight shooter. It's very nice to read your post and solution to dealing with your problem. All too often, all we hear about is how bad the contractor is, or how crappy the materials are, but it's very rare to hear from one side of the problem an open, honest assessment of the problem with a shared responsibility. It's people like you that make this such a great website. I feel inspired!!!

As for the flexible grout, I have my doubts. I think the problem is in the thinset not holding from movement of the building. Before buying all that flexible mortar, I would do a very detailed inspection of the cement under it for cracks. What I'm really afraid of it the movement is wave like and you wont find any stress cracks. I'm sure you've done allot of other searches on the sheetrock for cracks.

I had a client who told me that she had cracks in her hallway ceiling. She had two other contractors come out to fix the cracks, but they kept coming back. I went up into her attic, which neither of them did, and saw that she had a truss roof system. Almost all of the houses in that neighborhood have a rafter system. Anyway, the trusses were only attached to the exterior walls. There was nothing holding them in place on the interior walls of the house. This is a 30 year old house and the only thing holding the bottom chords in place is the sheetrock. Some 3 inch screws into the top plates of her interior walls fixed a problem that the others missed because then never took the time to find the actual cause of the problem.

I have my doubts that you are experiencing a freeze thaw cycle. There is just too many exterior tile jobs outside that don't have this issue for it to convince me that's the problem. It sounds like your tile guy is doing everything he can think of by calling the manufacturer on this, but I might be inclined to call them myself and go over every detail of it with them. I think that either the cement bed is too thin, or that it needs to be cut into sections and each section tiled separate from the other.

I've seen this on floors in commercial buildings, but never put allot of thought into why it was done. Now I'm thinking it was to stop the tile from popping off when the building moves.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[JB4310]

Sounds like both you and the contractor are reasonable people, makes life much easier. Personally I would not be embarrassed by this, unless I was the one that talked you into finishing the deck that way. I just have serious reservations about the application, an exterior ceramic tile in masonry substrate on a framed deck, in a freeze/thaw zone.

Maybe instead of setting tile in mud, the mastic would be better?
more flexible, they already have highly flexible grouts don't know why you would need poly in every joint.

You mentioned the contractor put poly in lieu of grout every 10 feet on the first repair, but that's not really a control joint, the stress relief would have to go all the way through the substrate, but I doubt that's the only problem.

Good luck, JB.

 

[dmccarty]

There are ANSI standards for laying tile, the base, mortar, etc. I followed them when I retiled our city house's bathrooms.

I found this, TCNA - TCA Publications. The site is selling books with the standards listed.

Somehow I surfed into this, http://www.tileusa.com/PressRel2006/Seven ANSi New Standards 82106_FINAL PDF.pdf

New Standards:
1. A108.01 General Requirements: Subsurfaces and Preparations by Other Trades
2. A108.02 General Requirements: Materials, Environmental, and Workmanship
3. A108.14 Installation of Paper-Faced Glass Mosaic Tile
4. A108.15 Alternate Method: Installation of Paper-Faced Glass Mosaic Tile
5. A108.16 Installation of Paper-Faced, Back-Mounted, Edge-Mounted, or Clear Film
Face-Mounted Glass Mosaic Tile
6. A108.17 Installation of Crack Isolation Membranes for Thin-set Ceramic Tile and
Dimension Stone
7. A118.12 American National Standard Specification for Crack Isolation Membranes for
Thin-set Ceramic Tile and Dimension Stone Installation
Revision (re: Deflection)
Previously, references to deflection stated, 擢loor areas over which tile is directly bonded to [the]
subfloor shall not have a deflection greater than 1/360 when tested per ASTM C627? Now,
deflection criteria refer to the international bldg. codes; the codes refer to l/360 but also specify
load criteria, which is much more useful to a design professional.

You might want to start with the ANSI standards for the structure and go from there. The standards should be out on the web somewhere but I could not find them quickly. I know I had them five years ago.

Later,
Dan

 

[CurlyDave]

I just love all the feedback from the people here.

I have little doubt that the deck is properly sloped. There is a pitch of at least 1/4" per foot. The 1/360 deflection criteria is common in residential construction. While it is good in construction using dimension lumber, BCIs in particular are a bit wimpy at that criteria. Especially for an impact load, where the OSB center section will flex.

The interior portions of the house were designed for 1/360 with floor joists on 16" centers wioth a 30' span, and the general contractor reduced that to 12" centers. We did an impromptu test of the structure during construction by jumping about 24' down onto the center of the LR floor from the third rung of as stepladder. We both agreed that there was too much deflection, and fortunately I had designed a 4' chase between the upper floor and the lower story ceiling. We added 18" Glulams to decrease the span of the BCIs to 15' and could not feel any more deflection.

While I didn't do a calculation, the deck was beefier than the interior, so there is a lot less than 1/360 deflection in the deck. If I had to guess, I would say less than 1/1000.

When he takes up the tile to reset it later this summer, I will inspect the concrete underlayment carefully for cracks, with the contractor. If we find cracks, we will re-do the concrete, allowing for expansion. If not, we will go ahead with re-setting the tile. Both the contractor and I did a cursory inspection of the concrete last year, and didn't see any glaring faults. This year I will do a more thorough inspection.

When I first posted my question, I really wanted to get some feedback from contractors on whether I was dealing properly with the situation, if my expectations were reasonable, and if offering to pay for materials was going to be the right thing.

But, I got a lot of technical advice also, which is a great side-effect.

I will take some pictures of the deck this afternoon and post them, to help with the technical part of the problem. Maybe you guys can point out something I am missing. I think we have the contractual side under control, now I am beginning to doubt if the fix we are looking at is correct.

 

[Wis Bang]

When the tile comes up, I would cut the mortar bed every 20' and along the house & fill that w/ the poly compound as the thermal expansion of the two layers could be un-equal and this would isolate them and let them move independently from the house.

I think buying the materials is a real 'good faith' effort on your part and shows you are trying to work with your contractor instead of blindly holding him responsible.

 

[TheKid]

Check with the folks at the John Bridge Tile forum. There are a lot of pros there that can tell you why it's failing and how to have it repaired correctly.

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