87 case 245 ih overheating hydraulics

[rwinslow]

New member here,
so i have a case 245 ih that has had chronic hyd. issues. it has a front end loader added to it recently. at first the original pump would get hot and blow out the front seal. after fighting this i replace with the latest pump available from case. this is the second time i have used the tractor since i put on the new pump. while brush hogging my field i lost all hyd pressure after @ an hour or two of running. The hyd pump was blistering hot but the engine was normal operating temp. I did change all the hyd fluid and cleanned the hyd screen when i changed pumps. i put royal purple syntractor 3 back in.any help is appreciated

 

[J_J]

Case 245 Tractor - Attachments - Specs

If the attachment pump is pumping the 4.5 GPM through all hyd valve in neutral, the fluid should be flowing freely through all valves with no or very little pressure.

If the fluid is over heating, with the valves in neutral, then something is providing resistance to the flow, and maybe flowing through a relief valve.

I recommend using a 3000 psi hyd gage and determine what pressure you have at any time.

You can install the gage in a tee in the IN port of the first valve, and use it to monitor and trouble shoot the hyd system.

 

[rwinslow]

i will have to get a flow meter to confirm this, will be doing so soon. i have a guage teed in and it has been running @ 2000psi i lowered the relief to 1500 psi just to see what happened and it seems to be better but it still feels like its getting hot. im also in the process of finding a temp guage to see what the temp actually is. Im considering installing a small hyd cooler as there is enough room between the battery and the radiator.

 

[Harry in Ky]

The cooler idea is a waste of time. You need to find out why the system pressure is so high. If you're serious about a system pressure of 2000 PSI with no valves in play, you have something plumbed incorrectly or some sort of valve problem somewhere that no oil cooler will cure. You need to examine your pressure/return routing and make sure all valves are in neutral. If you can't find the problem, have someone with more experience look at it, or you will be buying more pumps.

 

[Cpjlube]

How did you plumb in the loader? There is a serious issue somewhere. If all these problems started with the loader install, start there. Can you temporarily remove the FEL and the plumbing and return the tractor to it previous state? Then you could put the gauge in into the system and check pressures. Ill bet the loader is plumbed wrong or there is a valve issue with the FEL controls.

Chuck

 

[rwinslow]

yes i agree i really should put it back original. then look at what i have. It looks as if the guys that put the loader on teed into the pressure line. but i havent traced the return line out to see where it goes. i didnt think the pump should be running that kind of pressure on it all of the time, but i havent messed with tractors very much. the hydraulic pumps i deal with at work run that kind of pressure all of the time but they are not gear pumps they are axial pumps. thwe more i think about it, im starting to wonder if the valve is wrong, i would think it should be a P-T valve center and it acts like an all ports blocked. thanks for the info. and if anyone else has any input i will certainly welcome it. i will troubleshoot this some more tomorrow and post what i find guess i should have taken it to a dealer for the loader install.

 

[J_J]

Is your tractor open center or closed center hyd system.

Someone may have put a CC valve on a open center hyd system.

If you read 2000 psi on the gage with all valves in neutral, then it could be a CC hyd system, or it is an open center hyd system and someone hooked the valve up wrong.

Open center hd system usually have a gear pump.

 

[rwinslow]

yes it was 2000 psi with all valves in neutral. so it must be a closed center valve. if it was plumbed backwards the relief valve shouldnt have lowered the pressure when i adjusted it. but what about the 3 point hyd? shouldnt it allow the system to bypass when not in use? just wondering. because it was previously plumbed directly to that before i had the loader installed. either way im going to verify the plumbing today and see what i come up with.

 

[J_J]

Did your 3pt function normally after the loader was installed?

Do you know how valves are connected on both open center and closed center hyd system?

All open center valves are in series, with a PB port feeding downstream valves, and the pump fluid flows freely though all valves in neutral.

Closed center valves are all parrallel, meaning that all valve IN ports have the same pressure available and may have full pressure or a standby pressure at the IN port of all valves. Fluid only flows when a valve lever is activated and a cyl or motor is doing work. When the action stops, the fluid stops, or is routed to tank.

If you insert a closed center valve in an open center hyd system, you inhibit the normal flow, and the fluid will build up pressure and dump over the relief valve, heating up the hyd system.

 

[Cpjlube]

The Case 235, 245, 254 etc are Mitsubishi tractors, rebadged. All, to my knowledge, are open center. There is a hydraulic port on the left side, as you are sitting on it, under the seat, above the axle. That is where the loader hydraulics are plumbed in from the factory.

Chuck

 

[rwinslow]

i want to say thank you for everyones input. i found out why it was overheating. when they did the loader install they unhooked the pressure line from the flow divider, the one betwwen the fuel tank and bellhousing. and run it directly to the loader then hooked the return line from the loader valve to the flow divider. Not a good thing as i have confirmed the loader valve is a closed center. now i just need to simply replumb it correctly and all should be good again. Once againg thanks for the input and getting me steered in the right direction.

 

[Harry in Ky]

So what trick do you have in mind to make a closed center valve work by "simply replumbing"?

 

[rwinslow]

for starters there is an extra port used for the power steering on the flow divider, mine is manual steering so i have an extra pressure port. also one member suggested that there is a hyd port on the left under the seat where the factory hooked up there loaders. if neither of these prove to be viable options, then i will get a new open center valve for the loader.

 

[J_J]

If your valve is not convertible to open center or closed center, using that CC valve in an open center system is not going to work as it will block the fluid flow.

If it is convertible, just get the PB sleeve or hex plug and convert it to open center.

The fluid has to flow through all valve with all valve levers in neutral.

 

[rwinslow]

ok, so i have solved this whole ordeal. i should have probly mentioned it is a joy stick valve body with dual valves. the control valves/joystick for the loader is open center, after unhooking the lines and using the trusty air blower to verify all of this. what had me believing that it was a cc valve was the plug inside the valve body it was located under an extra T port plug that redirected the flow through the relief then out. i removed the plug and now fluid flows through freely as it should unless i stroke a valve. Then it will relieve only when a cylinder is fully stroked, as it should. I feel like a real dummy now after fighting this thing. but the issue is solved the pump now runs nice and cool and all functions operate as they should. once again i apperciate everyones input. i will now inform the shop where i purchased the loader and had it installed to be aware of this plug. i dont know if they are aware of it or how many of these loaders they have put on in the past. maybe it will save someone some grief in the future. oh and just fyi it is a (bull dog 235) loader.

 

[J_J]

What you said still does not make sense.

It appears that you are using the valve as open center valve with out PB.

You can use it in a fashion, but it is not logical nor correct.

What kind of sleeve or plug was in that port.

That port was probably a PB port but is only functional as a PB port if you install the sleeve or hex plug.

For open center operation, you need a PB sleeve or hex plugto send fluid to another valve.

Where is the fluid coming from that is now feeding the 3pt.

All OUT port fluid should be going to tank.

This is a PB sleeve.

Surplus Center - POWER BEYOND CARTRIDGE PRINCE LVR VALVE 660390008

 

[rwinslow]

i have the loader valve run in series. in neutral the fluid now flows straight through and i am using this to supply the 3 pt. now im not saying this is 100% correct but it works very well. as for the plug i removed it was a 1/2" orb plug. the plug was located underneath a plug on top of the loader valve. with this plug in place fluid had to pass through the pressure relief valve before it could pass over the valves and out to tank. this plug separated pressure and tank from what i could determine also once the cyl. are fully stroked and fluid is then deadheaded then i can adjust the relief pressure so not to blow the cyls. now the pump runs cool and all functions work great including the 3pt. a schematic of this valvebody would have made life easier. now my brush hog front seal is leaking. totally unrelated i know, but my luck anyways.

 

[J_J]

If your valve is a Prince valve, read through the parts manual and it will tell you how to use the PB
port.

Page 9

http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/valves/LvManual.pdf

 

[rwinslow]

my valve does not appear to be a prince, but i will investigate some more, there are no tags on it. i will check to see if it has a pb port in the morn, there is another plug on the body so if it is the pb port the i will replumb accordingly, as i want this thing to be right and to avoid any more issues in the future. once again thanks for the input.