You'd have to pick me up off the floor if you said the dealer said they weren't as strong as the older ones... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Maybe someone with a lot more tractor experience than me could tell us if loader arms ever break? My point is do we come close to stressing these members with the type of loading we typically do.
4x30 Series Rumors?
- Thread starter rmonio
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I guess I'm not surprised Mike - it's just the same old thing... Like buying a car - I hate to buy a car and then find out it's the last year for it and they are coming out with something totally new next model year. I start to get that "what if I waited" twinge. Not to worry though - I console myself by realizing the amount of work I've already done - that wouldn't have been done if I'd waited! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Besides... this is America - If I want a new one it's only a trade-in away!
Besides... this is America - If I want a new one it's only a trade-in away!
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
<font color="green"> Besides... this is America - If I want a new one it's only a trade-in away! </font>
Kinda what I meant by "rental" Maybe they have something in stock that;d work till summer, with the idea it'd be traded in on either the 4710 or 4720...
Kinda what I meant by "rental" Maybe they have something in stock that;d work till summer, with the idea it'd be traded in on either the 4710 or 4720...
timb
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I certainly picked everyone's brains here long enough and like Kevin was planning to actually buy later this year - mid-late summer if possible. Prime candiate is/was a 4710 reverser.
In a cup-half-empty sort of day - I just hope that if there is 'new and improved' it actually is. Regardless of the category of product, 99 times out of a hundred when some long-time well-thought-of product gets 'improved' by the mfg. I find myself hoping I can find one of the old models before they're gone.
Making the most popular options standard? What is optional now that could take away a legitimate choice?
2 wheel drive? - probably not a biggie for most buyers - but note that the MFWD axle on these CUTS is (unlike bigger utility tractors) not particularly adjustable in track. The 2wd axles are. Might effect someone needing to do small-scale row crop work.
Transmissions? - if they make hydro standard I'll be buying elsewhere for my needs - but I doubt they'd drop reversers all together. We did lose a creeper option last time with the '10' series.
3rd SCV standard? That might be a plus if it knocks a few bucks off today's option price.
There are some minor options that it wouldn't hurt to make standard - extendable links, block heaters, work lights, the bigger altenator and the like.
I hope there are real improvements without downside but hope no one minds if I start looking to see who has a 4710 reverser on the lot just in case. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Tim
In a cup-half-empty sort of day - I just hope that if there is 'new and improved' it actually is. Regardless of the category of product, 99 times out of a hundred when some long-time well-thought-of product gets 'improved' by the mfg. I find myself hoping I can find one of the old models before they're gone.
Making the most popular options standard? What is optional now that could take away a legitimate choice?
2 wheel drive? - probably not a biggie for most buyers - but note that the MFWD axle on these CUTS is (unlike bigger utility tractors) not particularly adjustable in track. The 2wd axles are. Might effect someone needing to do small-scale row crop work.
Transmissions? - if they make hydro standard I'll be buying elsewhere for my needs - but I doubt they'd drop reversers all together. We did lose a creeper option last time with the '10' series.
3rd SCV standard? That might be a plus if it knocks a few bucks off today's option price.
There are some minor options that it wouldn't hurt to make standard - extendable links, block heaters, work lights, the bigger altenator and the like.
I hope there are real improvements without downside but hope no one minds if I start looking to see who has a 4710 reverser on the lot just in case. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Tim
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
Look for 2WD and base gear transmissions to go away (they are already gone...) reversers and hst stay.
Look for less models. (4025, 4420, 4720 are my guesses...)
Look for 3rd scv and power beyond as std. equipment.
Better lighting and visibility.
Creeper IS available on eHydros.
<font color="green"> hope no one minds if I start looking to see who has a 4710 reverser on the lot just in case </font>
No, that's always a good idea... (I know where one is... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
Look for less models. (4025, 4420, 4720 are my guesses...)
Look for 3rd scv and power beyond as std. equipment.
Better lighting and visibility.
Creeper IS available on eHydros.
<font color="green"> hope no one minds if I start looking to see who has a 4710 reverser on the lot just in case </font>
No, that's always a good idea... (I know where one is... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
I just realiized that looking at the current lineup, just drop the bottem two models from each class and that is the setup you'd have.
Both the 4710 and 4410 are only available as 4WD and don't have SyncShift as an option.
Both the 4710 and 4410 are only available as 4WD and don't have SyncShift as an option.
Kevin37
Silver Member
Talking to the wife last night, we discuss how nothing is getting done at the property. ( NO tractor /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif) She says "You know what you want so get the paperwork started tomorrow". I figure today I'll shoot the two e-mails to the dealers I have been talking to and follow up with phone calls and appointments, if necessary. Can't get the day going without checking TBN and sure enough, there's the discussion about the "New & Improved". Oh well. After reading some of your responses, I'll call the dealers anyway and get their take on what's in store for late Summer. After thinking about it, I don't think I'll change from the plan I had last night. There's no way I would regret owning a 4710. I know I'm gettin' close cause I'm gettin' nervous!
Kevin
Disclaimer: The above decision is subject to change based on any pictures, details, and the intensity of the "OOh's and AAH's when I visit the dealer.
Kevin
Disclaimer: The above decision is subject to change based on any pictures, details, and the intensity of the "OOh's and AAH's when I visit the dealer.
shoppintractors
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<font color="blue">You'd have to pick me up off the floor if you said the dealer said they weren't as strong as the older ones... </font>
Steve:
The NH 7308 Loader was rated to lift 875 lbs @ the pivot pin. The New 14LA curved arm loader (the 7308's replacement) is rated to lift 1256 lbs. @ the pivot pin. What do ya think?
Don
Steve:
The NH 7308 Loader was rated to lift 875 lbs @ the pivot pin. The New 14LA curved arm loader (the 7308's replacement) is rated to lift 1256 lbs. @ the pivot pin. What do ya think?
Don
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
Good plan!
Well what I meant was coming from my background (a long time ago) in the car business. I don't imagine ANY dealer would ever say that their new product was not superior to the old one in every way - I't hard to impart sarcasm here - but I'd laugh if he had said "yep - these new loader arms sure are pretty, not as strong as the old ones... but who cares.. just look at em".
Regarding my other question - If the lift limit is 1200lbs, I'd think they probably engineer the loader arms to take a lot more stress than that - just to be safe, so no matter what arm style, I'm guessing it's more a limit of hyrdraulics than loader arm strength that puts the limit where it is.
Take care,
Regarding my other question - If the lift limit is 1200lbs, I'd think they probably engineer the loader arms to take a lot more stress than that - just to be safe, so no matter what arm style, I'm guessing it's more a limit of hyrdraulics than loader arm strength that puts the limit where it is.
Take care,
timb
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Weelllll... is it time to start the baseless rumor-get-it-off-your-chest list yet for desired change? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I'll take a proper skid-steer quick-tach on the loader. Couldn't hurt.
At least two rear SCV's that have nothing to do with the joystick but have separate controls.
Eliminate the either/or but not both of the T&T and draft control options.
Add gauges. (not holding my breath)
Reverse the strategy on the hydraulic reverser clutch so that it takes hydraulic pressure to disengage not engage. Actually allows parking it in gear to mean something.
and finally - use (slightly) larger front (R1) tires on component rims to allow as many front track changes as at the rear just like all of the 5000 series thank you. (what's the point of 8-position rears with 1 position fronts? - dish out being not recommended as is).
Tim
well, one last pet peeve I just thought of... eliminate 'ground effect' pseudo-aerodynamic styling. It's a tractor for crumbsakes. Top speed is 17 mph, maybe. It should look like a tractor.
(...stepping down off the soapbox... time for my coffee)
I'll take a proper skid-steer quick-tach on the loader. Couldn't hurt.
At least two rear SCV's that have nothing to do with the joystick but have separate controls.
Eliminate the either/or but not both of the T&T and draft control options.
Add gauges. (not holding my breath)
Reverse the strategy on the hydraulic reverser clutch so that it takes hydraulic pressure to disengage not engage. Actually allows parking it in gear to mean something.
and finally - use (slightly) larger front (R1) tires on component rims to allow as many front track changes as at the rear just like all of the 5000 series thank you. (what's the point of 8-position rears with 1 position fronts? - dish out being not recommended as is).
Tim
well, one last pet peeve I just thought of... eliminate 'ground effect' pseudo-aerodynamic styling. It's a tractor for crumbsakes. Top speed is 17 mph, maybe. It should look like a tractor.
(...stepping down off the soapbox... time for my coffee)
yellowsocks93
Veteran Member
well, one last pet peeve I just thought of... eliminate 'ground effect' pseudo-aerodynamic styling. It's a tractor for crumbsakes. Top speed is 17 mph, maybe. It should look like a tractor.
<font color="red"> </font>
Thank you for saying this!! If Deere goes to some butt ugly hood I don't know if I will buy another Deere compact. Actually when I was buying my 4300 I got it about a couple weeks before we had the new 4010 series come in and I was quite glad to see I had bought the old model sice it seemed a little less cheap like the plastic added around the kick plate I guess you call it mine was nice green metal. Also the cheap tilt steering wheel IMHO was added to the 4010 series. They should have left it infinately variable like the old 4000 series. When out in the sun it would not get stuck in position! I am kind of a guy who likes the old style of things and usually wait until the last minuite to get the old product before the new model comes out. Good thing I got the 990 before they drop it! I am very interested to see the new JD compacts. You never know they may be really nice after all. As for the original poster if you like the 4710 as it is now and are very happy with it I would buy it. The larger 4010 series are pretty nice. Good motor and transmision. I do like the way they look compared to Case and New Holland.
<font color="red"> </font>
Thank you for saying this!! If Deere goes to some butt ugly hood I don't know if I will buy another Deere compact. Actually when I was buying my 4300 I got it about a couple weeks before we had the new 4010 series come in and I was quite glad to see I had bought the old model sice it seemed a little less cheap like the plastic added around the kick plate I guess you call it mine was nice green metal. Also the cheap tilt steering wheel IMHO was added to the 4010 series. They should have left it infinately variable like the old 4000 series. When out in the sun it would not get stuck in position! I am kind of a guy who likes the old style of things and usually wait until the last minuite to get the old product before the new model comes out. Good thing I got the 990 before they drop it! I am very interested to see the new JD compacts. You never know they may be really nice after all. As for the original poster if you like the 4710 as it is now and are very happy with it I would buy it. The larger 4010 series are pretty nice. Good motor and transmision. I do like the way they look compared to Case and New Holland.
Twenty improvements that would motivate me to upgrade my 4100:
1. Skid-steer style quick attach on loader
2. Aux hydraulic circuit plumbed on loader to actually run skid-steer attachments.
3. Increased loader capacity to actually be able to lift a full bucket out of a loose sand pile, much less breakout packed clay while digging.
4. Increase loader roll-back. I would sacrafice dump angle for this.
5. Add auto-leveling for use with forks.
6. Sloped hood. Not for aero-dynamics, but for visbility.
7. Built-in frame mount for backhoe.
8. Backhoe mount to not interfere or depend on MMM being removed. Very important for those quick little chores that should only take 15 minutes to dig a little hole and plant a tree or replace the mailbox or whatever.
9. Improved parking brake holding power.
10. Improved design of any plastic parts. Avoid thin sections! I would rather have a few sink marks in the plastic then to have the thin little section around the 3-point control lever crack and flop around. Learn from the toy people - Fisher Price. They use 1/2" wall thickness in a lot of their stuff!
11. Improve the bracket that holds the hyd hoses out of the front tire. Mine fell off. In college, they tought us in Mech. Engineering 101 that one or two screws are a waste of money - might as well not even bolt it on with one screw because it IS GOING TO FALL OFF!
12. Slight increase in loader dig depth. As loader gets older and the mount gets loose, when trying to grade or scrape uneven surfaces, a few more inches of depth would be nice.
13. Soft cab option.
14. Factory tooth-bar option.
15. Lower or third gear range on HST. In some situations, I run out of torque before running out of traction.
16. Cup holder, carry-rack, toolbox, good place to store a rag.
17. Better rust-proofing/paint. Many tractors are not parked indoors.
18. Use a standard 2" receiver for the drawbar.
19. Places on the frame (loops, holes, etc) for transport tie-down (especially in the rear).
20. Keep weight down for mowing.
1. Skid-steer style quick attach on loader
2. Aux hydraulic circuit plumbed on loader to actually run skid-steer attachments.
3. Increased loader capacity to actually be able to lift a full bucket out of a loose sand pile, much less breakout packed clay while digging.
4. Increase loader roll-back. I would sacrafice dump angle for this.
5. Add auto-leveling for use with forks.
6. Sloped hood. Not for aero-dynamics, but for visbility.
7. Built-in frame mount for backhoe.
8. Backhoe mount to not interfere or depend on MMM being removed. Very important for those quick little chores that should only take 15 minutes to dig a little hole and plant a tree or replace the mailbox or whatever.
9. Improved parking brake holding power.
10. Improved design of any plastic parts. Avoid thin sections! I would rather have a few sink marks in the plastic then to have the thin little section around the 3-point control lever crack and flop around. Learn from the toy people - Fisher Price. They use 1/2" wall thickness in a lot of their stuff!
11. Improve the bracket that holds the hyd hoses out of the front tire. Mine fell off. In college, they tought us in Mech. Engineering 101 that one or two screws are a waste of money - might as well not even bolt it on with one screw because it IS GOING TO FALL OFF!
12. Slight increase in loader dig depth. As loader gets older and the mount gets loose, when trying to grade or scrape uneven surfaces, a few more inches of depth would be nice.
13. Soft cab option.
14. Factory tooth-bar option.
15. Lower or third gear range on HST. In some situations, I run out of torque before running out of traction.
16. Cup holder, carry-rack, toolbox, good place to store a rag.
17. Better rust-proofing/paint. Many tractors are not parked indoors.
18. Use a standard 2" receiver for the drawbar.
19. Places on the frame (loops, holes, etc) for transport tie-down (especially in the rear).
20. Keep weight down for mowing.
timb
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LOL - /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Keeney - your list shows how hard it is to please the whole range of potential CUT-sized tractor customers! I'm looking for a modern Farmall Super-C or Deere 420 (the tractor not the GT) with far better flexibility and it sounds like you need a very different tractor. I agree completely with many of your suggestions but I'd take more heft and improved ground clearance while still keeping the package compact and manuverable.
Maybe the mfgs are doing a pretty fair job of compromise already given the actual market! The tractor I'd design would probably be completely the wrong direction for half the market and vice-versa. Still kind of worried where Deere would be taking the 20 series.
Nick - in my shopping NH/Case is still in the running, especially with their new 48/55 units. But for sure if I go that way I'll buy the <font color="red"> red </font> Farmall edition over the new <font color="blue"> blue </font> NH look. Different strokes for different folks.
Tim
Keeney - your list shows how hard it is to please the whole range of potential CUT-sized tractor customers! I'm looking for a modern Farmall Super-C or Deere 420 (the tractor not the GT) with far better flexibility and it sounds like you need a very different tractor. I agree completely with many of your suggestions but I'd take more heft and improved ground clearance while still keeping the package compact and manuverable.
Maybe the mfgs are doing a pretty fair job of compromise already given the actual market! The tractor I'd design would probably be completely the wrong direction for half the market and vice-versa. Still kind of worried where Deere would be taking the 20 series.
Nick - in my shopping NH/Case is still in the running, especially with their new 48/55 units. But for sure if I go that way I'll buy the <font color="red"> red </font> Farmall edition over the new <font color="blue"> blue </font> NH look. Different strokes for different folks.
Tim
yellowsocks93
Veteran Member
I too like the Case over the NH. When I was driving to a track meet on the side of the road was the new Cases with a tan seat and fender control pannel. Looked nice and all but I am kind of partial to JD even though I may not agree with all the changes they make to equipment. I just hate change. If I had it my way I would go back to the 1980s since I did not have a whole lot of time to spend in those great years.
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
Talked to a dealer I don't usually use, and was told only the large chassis 4x20s come this summer. His answer was that ONLY the engines will be changed. The reason given was that they didn't meet the Tier II emissions. He has plenty of the 4x10s in stock.
JayC
Veteran Member
So the engines are the only thing changing on the large chassis machines? Do you know what they will be changing? I wonder how long JD will put off changing the rest of the lineup if all they're doing now is changing the large chassis machines... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
Sorry, but I don't believe this guy either knows or is telling all, though. I don't believe Deere would change the series number just for an engine refinement due to emissions. There are plenty of folks who are seeing info on far more significant changes. I CAN understand that the large chassis would need to be addressed earlier, and so they get the changes FIRST.
I'll keep digging...
I'll keep digging...
JayC
Veteran Member
I was wondering the same thing about the series number. I guess we won't know what Deere is actually doing until they are ready to spill the beans.
timb
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Only way I could see just an engine change being worth a series number is if they were no longer Yanmar engines!
The new emission regs are pretty strict. Anyone know if any Yanmar-powered machines are currently certified?
What about fuel requirements?
Will these engines require a different spec diesel than good-old-fashioned off-road? Having to burn road fuel in the tractor to 1) meet regs and 2) not harm the engine could make a big $$$ difference over time if you can't recover the road taxes paid.
Looking at it a different way - the old question of "can I burn home heating oil in my tractor?". Home oil is probably already higher sulphur than road fuel - and if I remember some other conversations here - with the ever-increasing regs road fuel is likely to be much lower sulphur soon. IF it's currently safe to burn generic #2 heating oil in a CUT today - would that still be true with the new engines?
(FYI My heating oil delivery invoices simply say "diesel fuel".)
Tim
The new emission regs are pretty strict. Anyone know if any Yanmar-powered machines are currently certified?
What about fuel requirements?
Will these engines require a different spec diesel than good-old-fashioned off-road? Having to burn road fuel in the tractor to 1) meet regs and 2) not harm the engine could make a big $$$ difference over time if you can't recover the road taxes paid.
Looking at it a different way - the old question of "can I burn home heating oil in my tractor?". Home oil is probably already higher sulphur than road fuel - and if I remember some other conversations here - with the ever-increasing regs road fuel is likely to be much lower sulphur soon. IF it's currently safe to burn generic #2 heating oil in a CUT today - would that still be true with the new engines?
(FYI My heating oil delivery invoices simply say "diesel fuel".)
Tim
