4x20, How much HP do I really need

sweetjeep · Aug 20, 2007

Hey folks,

I have long ago decided on a new 20 series to help me carve, beat and force my new property into a little hobby farm and to build a house and what not.

And naturally, I am a typcial guy and in my head "more power = more better". But, what I am trying to figure out, is, how much power do I REALLY need?

On the 20 series, the specs are the same for every model except actual HP rating.

Now, I know (assume) that HP does not affect hydraulic ratings and that the 400 loader on the 4120 will lift the same (roughly) as on the 4720, as the rest of the parts are all the same.

If am primarily interested in the loader/backhoe and putting some time into a box blade and possibly a PTO tiller at some point.

I will be doing a very significant amount of land clearing. Rocks and trees but I suspect that even the 4120 is more than adequate.

Any opinions?

Z-Michigan · Aug 20, 2007

If you look up specs, hydraulics and loader lift capacity are the same for all models. I think a 4120 would be totally adequate. I might consider going to a 4320, but probably not any bigger. IMHO the 4520-4720 has more power than it appears able to use with its chassis size, unless you get a cab and need power for the AC. You may also want to consider the 400CX loader which has significantly more lift capacity than the 400X.

AKfish · Aug 20, 2007

Yup, the 4000x20's are pretty much identical in every respect besides Hp. Lot's of discussion here about how Deere has configured the computer, turbo and fuel injection pump to achieve the different Hp outputs.

Hydraulic output is the same for all models in the series. So, FEL performance will be the same also. (But... you might want to really consider the CX over the X model FEL --- that 500 bucks --- will really pay off later on.)

You mentioned that box blading and rototilling are primary chores for this new machine. Here's where more Hp is important. A 4720, etc. will generally pull a larger ground engagement attachment than a 4120. Disk harrow, box blade, rear blade, rototiller; traction/soil conditions, notwithstanding, more Hp = more better.

PTO work; where traction is less of an issue getting the power to the ground is also where more Hp = more better.

That said... an 84 inch rototiller is more $$$ than a 72 inch. And so on --- bigger box blade is more $$$. So, if you got the cash and those larger attachments are gonna save you time and get the work done more efficiently..

Well, get the 45 or 4720. My 2 bucks.

AKfish

sweetjeep · Aug 20, 2007

Thanks for the input thus far..

I have participated in many of the HP upgrade debates.

Z-mich: No cab for me. At most a soft cab that I can remove in seconds. I love the factory cabs, but they are too much money and there is WAY too much damage to be had. I live in far to heavily a wooded area to have a full cab tractor and not destroy it!

AK: Sorry.. the tiller and box blade will be very very minor uses for the tractor. The primary is overwhelmingly loader use, then backhoe, then other stuff.

CWP37 · Aug 20, 2007

A good rule of thumb would be buy as much horsepower as you can afford. I know that sounds a little bit smart @$$, but it's true. I've yet to hear anybody complain of buying too much power.

I bought a 50 hp tractor when I thought I'd need a 40 hp. When I was mowing my 18"" high coastal field this morning, I was glad I had the extra horses.

If you can comfortably afford a 4720, buy it.

Z-Michigan · Aug 20, 2007

sweetjeep said:
AK: Sorry.. the tiller and box blade will be very very minor uses for the tractor. The primary is overwhelmingly loader use, then backhoe, then other stuff.

HP will make no difference for the backhoe, only hydraulic flow matters. For FEL work, more hp would help pushing into a pile, but is likely less important than weight, speed, and technique. If the piles will be loose material, the 4120 should be fine. I agree with the general view that more hp is better, but with two caveats:
-money - who really has so much $$$ to burn that it doesn't matter? If you do, skip the 4720 and get a JD110 TLB instead.
-breaking implements - more hp gives you greater ability to break stuff. I have 50hp and I damage implements supposedly made for up to 60hp. If you get a 4520 or 4720, you may need to move a class up in implements compared to what would work on a 4120.

wolc123 · Aug 20, 2007

I have a 4120 gear and I have never felt the need for more power after a couple years use. This tractor is very comfortable to operate and great on fuel. My primary usage is open field mowing with a 6 ft rotary mower. For loader work, my tractor's performance exceeds my neighbor's 4720, but that is only because he chose not to load his rear tires (do not forget this important step). Your task description sounds a little more suited to a hydro transmission and I would go to a 4320 to get the same power to the ground/pto as a 4120 gear. The 400X loader has worked real well for me. I especially like the standard equipment quick attach bucket. Removing just the bucket takes less than 20 seconds, keeps the hydraulics clean, gives good forward visibility, removes all the "bounce", and leaves the tractor ballasted well for the rear mower. I don't think there is a significant lift capacity difference between the CX and the X (check the JD website).

jcmseven · Aug 20, 2007

I have had a 4520 and can say it was VERY little different than my neighbor's 4320 tractor. Perhaps ever so little more powerful, but not much. My philosophy is be frugal or go all out. I went with a 4520 v. a 4720 because my dealer had one he wanted to let go quickly and the price was pretty good. Had I chosen I would have gone 4720. But, that said, the 4120 would easily do everything you want, and then some. If you are doing loader work and backhoe work I think you would waste some money going with the 4720, as these two areas are not where the power helps you. True, if you fully ballasted a 4720 and did wheel weights plus filled tires plus the kitchen sink for ballast it would probably pull a bit more than the 4120, but I seriously doubt it would do more if not heavily weighted.

John M

Turkeyman · Aug 21, 2007

For land clearing I got a 4720, really do not need more power even when I run my 1600lb Brown tree cutter. The 50 PTO hp will pull a 3 bottom plow even in our clay soil with R4's. The only thing the tractor needs is better traction ie bigger tires. Maybe Deere will look at this one day.
The 4 series is a great line!

wolc123 · Aug 21, 2007

My 4120 works real good on a 3x14" plow, but it has loaded R1's and gets plenty of traction. R4's are the wrong tire for this job, no sence having all that power if you can not get it to the ground. A 4720 with loaded R1's would do ok on a 4x14" plow if it was still available in gear trans but with the hydro, would best stick with a 3-bottom.

Greyfields · Aug 22, 2007

I love my 4120. But if I did it all over again, I'd get at least the 4320. There are loads of implements & attachments out there suited for 40 & 45 HP PTO's; but it starts getting very scarce at 35 HP or lower. The extra 5 HP would have really helped me run the baler more comfortably. The 4120 does bog me down with a 2 bottom plow, which is the only other area where I would have liked the 5 more HP.

sweetjeep · Aug 23, 2007

thanks a lot guys!

I have heard the theory of "buy for your biggest job". But for a couple years I have been continually impressed by my 4310. It's continually done everything I could ask.

Moving to the new property and newer equipment I wondered if I'd truly need as much a jump as I am getting. Naturally if I came across a 4720 and a 4120 for the same price/condition/etc, I buy the bigger one. Duh. But I have passed a couple decent deals on 4120s simply because I wanted more. But I'm debating if I REALLY need more.

Someone mentioned the eHydro vs gear. I am a little curious about that one.

I have eHydro on my 4310 now, and I really like it. But I am a little concerned about getting a new one and over the course of dragging logs and box blading and things like this. Are the clutch packs truly able to take the abuse or am I going to be replacing the bits and pieces in 500 or 1000 hours?? I know with a gear tranny odds are VERY high that I will never have to replace the clutch, and gears are gears, unless something really bad happens, they don't break or wear out. But I am concerned about actually wearing out the hydro parts.

Z-mich suggested a 110. Which I also keep my eye on. But for some reason it strikes me that a 20 series is a better all around piece than the 110. I don't know that there is any reality to my thinking though.

Z-Michigan · Aug 23, 2007

I think the 110 is based on the prior 4x10 series that you own, but substantially beefed up in all areas. I'm not an expert on it.

As for your transmission questions - the eHydro is a HST transmission. Unless JD did something really weird, there are no clutch packs involved anywhere. HST has no relationship to automotive type automatic transmissions; it is an entirely different system. The HST pedals change the tilt of a plate that changes the amount of hydraulic fluid moved from one side of the HST transmission to another, which transmits the power. This system doesn't wear from much of anything, though it can overheat. The 3 gear ranges are manually shifted without synchros, and as long as you're at a stop when shifting, nothing should wear significantly over a lifetime of normal use.

The gear option on a 4320 has a hydraulically actuated wet clutch and has synchros on all gears. Both can wear, but they wear extremely slowly. The wet clutch should last a couple 1000 hours of use, which is probably a lifetime for a 4x20 tractor. The synchros wear too, but unless you're racing your tractor around a road course, I would guesstimate a lifetime of 5000+ hours for them, maybe even a lot more than that. Basically, with either transmission option on a 4320, I don't think you'll wear anything out. Dry clutches are more of an issue, but nothing in that series has a dry clutch.

ddivinia · Aug 24, 2007

I have a 4720 and for sure I could have gotten a lower horse power one. Make sure you are comparing apples. The 4720 has e-hyrdo standard. Some of the 4x20s have the power reverser standard and the e-hydro is not cheap. I believe there was a cooler option but it might be standard ont he e-hyrdro, but not on the power reverser.

The platforms are the same - essentially different hp. I have R4s on mine and there is no way I will use all the HP getting it to the ground. The hyrdaulics sometimes have a hard time picking up some items - so even getting into some piles to get a bigger bite is a waste.

The price different between a 4520 and a 4720 was liek $1000 or so. I figured I was spending $30K anyway - so, screw it.

Considerations:
Transmission
Tires - R4 traction sucks in mud, but I have a 5525 for the nasty stuff.
R4s dont tear up my yard.
I bet the high HP models burn more fuel, but I can't confirm it.

I talked my buddy into a 4120 with R1s and e-hyrdo because he was going to be running a MX-6, some general loader work. He has not been disappointed.

No complaints out of me regarding my 4720.

D.

sweetjeep · Aug 24, 2007

Z-Mich: Thanks for the info on how the trans works. It makes more sense than the description I got previously.

sweetjeep · Sep 7, 2007

Well.. honestly, I never didi decide how much HP I NEED, but I got as much as I could..

there is a used 2005 4720 with 275 (or so) hours on it sitting in my yard waiting for me..

I haven't even seen it yet!