Comparison 30-ish HP TLB Thoughts

[herefromthere]

Sorry for the long post, but I want to try to get all of the considerations in one place. Thoughts would be most appreciated. I'm seriously contemplating a tractor loader backhoe purchase, and so far I've spoken to the big three dealers locally (green, blue, and orange.) Red paint (MF) wasn't quite as local and was a really small shop. My property has about 1/4 mile of driveway with some steep sections, a planned 50' x 100' of garden (max for now), lots of forest that I will be building some access trails into, a few of which would be nice to have tractor width. The rest will be singletrack, so not relevant for the tractor requirements.

Implements I forsee wanting include a box scraper, a small tiller, and something to help with skidding logs. The primary use won't be for that, but I will occasionally want to move logs over distance. Planned upgrades I'd like to start out with include: bolt on bucket cutting edge, 3 weld-on chain hooks on loader bucket, telescoping 3-point arms, ballasted R4 tires, I do have lots of hills, so stability is a big consideration. Re-grading the driveway, changing the pitch, and adding drainage will be ongoing projects. I will occasionally have to move some snow, and will initially do it with the front bucket, but may do something else later.

A backhoe is a pretty big extravagance, but they are really handy for plucking the root balls of the small alder trees that grow like weeds here on the wet side of Washington state on any disturbed ground. It will get used for that and the driveway drainage projects enough to justify it, I think. If not, well it's a pretty darned fun toy, isn't it? I have been planning on a mechanical thumb with 6 positions. Are the dealer-installed ones set up with some kind of relief or shear pin to avoid bending or breaking something spendy? I was reading the mechanical vs. hydraulic thumb thread, but don't fully understand it yet. Just getting the backhoe is extravagant, but to add a hydraulic thumb seems to push it over the edge.

At one point, I rented a John Deere 2305 and was pretty underwhelmed with just about everything. Quality seemed poor, and I constantly had to wrestle that seat. Some of the functions malfunctioned sporadically, and the backhoe had nowhere near enough force. The common advice on here is to always go big, but I want maneuverable as well. From my experience and from what I've read here and other places, I figure around 30HP is a good place for my intended uses. I will plan on keeping a separate mower of some type, so mowing/brush hogging isn't a concern for now. The tractors below may not be perfect apples to apples comparisons, but they are what the dealers recommended when presented with the same criteria. I'd love to have a loaded Kubota B26 or a Deere 110TLB, but the lottery #'s haven't been in my favor yet.

John Deere 3320
Barnett Equipment (Mount Vernon)
Thoughts and concerns: Green paint is really expensive. Turbo adds expensive parts, so what is the advantage if not trying to save weight if we're talking comparable HP? How compatible with other companies attachments is the Deere I-match stuff? I assume it's standard across the line. Like the non-corroding material for the loader arm/cylinder(?) surfaces. Also like the fact that it's a large, established dealer. Too heavy with loader & backhoe for my 7k gross car trailer w/18' deck.

New Holland T1510
Brim Tractor (Mount Vernon)
Thoughts and concerns: Seems like a good, basic tractor and very comparable to the Kubota L3200. Too heavy with loader & backhoe for my 7k gross car trailer w/18' deck.

Kubota L3200
Scholten's Equipment (Burlington)
Thoughts and concerns: That jerky valve on the 3-pt I keep hearing about. Flimsy plastic feeling steering wheel that actually feels weaker than the one on the B3300SU. Seems very comparable to the T1510. Would add the BH77 backhoe which looks very similar to the Woods BH80X on the NH T1510. Too heavy with loader & backhoe for my 7k gross car trailer w/18' deck.

Kubota B3300SU
Scholten's Equipment (Burlington)
Thougts and concerns: Quick attach loader bucket/skid steer compatibility not available. Would add the BH77 backhoe which looks very similar to the Woods BH80X on the NH T1510. Does the basic utility tractor get a better 3-point valve than the L-series? Lighter than L-series, and would use rotating seat for backhoe, so it would be both more maneuverable in use and towable fully loaded on my 7k gross trailer.

Due to the price, the turbo vs. natural aspiration, and the possible attachment compatibility, I'm leaning toward the Kubota L3200 or the New Holland T1510. Any thoughts, comments, and recommendations are welcome. If I should be considering other tractors or accessories, please add them. Thoughts on the dealers listed above would be great as well. Thanks in advance!

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

3320 is not turbo.

Matt

 

[DennisFolsom]

I was thinking in terms of a JD 3320, a Kubota L3400, a Bobcat CT-335, or a Massey 1533. I also wanted a backhoe. Cost was an issue. I settled for a deal on a used JD 4600 with 48 backhoe. That's a frame size larger than the new tractors I had been considering. I have now used the 4600 for 100+ hours, much of it backhoe work. I'm not a bit sorry I went larger. I looked again at a 3320 on a visit to the JD dealer. The 3320 looks awfully small and narrow to me now.

Given that a backhoe is on your wish list, I would recommend going into the 4000 series John Deere's, or the equivalent size in another brand.

I'm not totally against a turbo, but I'm glad my tractor does not have one. To me, it's just another expensive piece to have to replace someday. I'd rather have the same power in a bit larger engine.

No need to apologize for the long post. You gave good information and well organized also.

 

[Verticaltrx]

As far as the Kubota's go, the B3300 is going to have a quarter inching 3pt hitch whereas the L3200 has a position control 3pt. The one on the B-series will be nice and smooth, but some don't like it for a variety of reasons (plenty of reading on that in the Kubota section). The 3pt on the L series can be jerky according to most owners, so I guess take your pick.

To me the backhoe setup on the B-series is a lot nicer with the integrated seat and closer mounted hoe, but the L series does give a little more loader lift height. If you don't plan on doing any loading of trucks or such, I think the B3300 would suit you fine. They will both handle the BH77 the same, although the extra weight of the L-series will make for a little smoother 'ride' under heavy digging.

 

[art]

The L-series Kubota would be a better choice.

 

[jenkinsph]

I would rather have a used piece of equipment that fit my requirements than a new one that doesn't measure up. All of them are used once you get them home. I would look around for a used 110tlb or B26 if that is what you want. Both of these are really good machines and are available in good condition in your price range. I have a 110tlb and have been very satisfied with what it will do, very versatile machine. I have used the B26 which is smaller but really liked it's ability for the size, better than Deere's offerings in its weight class.

 

[Gittyup]

Weight is king for backhoe/loader work. You seem to be letting your trailer capacity dictate what size to buy. Could be a mistake where you are left with yet another underwhelming tractor. Now, I understand the trailer delemma. But, what good is a tractor that won't fit your needs?

Since weight is king, I like the Kioti/BC or Branson tractors for digging. Also, HP won't be as important for your intended tasks. Hydraulics will be. Again, this where the Kiotis/BCs shine. I recommend a DK40. I know these aren't on your list. But, you should give them serious consideration. Also, the 1600 series MFs are real beasts too.... and yes they will exceed your trailer capacity.

Within your trailer capacity, and giving outstanding digging performance, look at the Kioti CK20 or BC CT120. Nice short wheelbase with outstanding loader, weight, hydraulic specs. These are only 22 hp. But HP isn't the driving factor for many of your chores. You will likely save a good bit of money too.

 

[herefromthere]

Thank you for the information everyone and the correction on the 3320; not sure where I got the idea it was turbocharged.

As for size and weight, I'm willing to give up some capability on the higher end of things for maneuverability. Most of what I'll be doing will be small projects, but there will be a lot of varied types of projects. With a larger machine, I'd definitely give up the ability to get into tight places or position myself as well in them. That said, I'm not totally stuck on keeping total weight of tractor/loader/backhoe under 5k# to be able to use the trailer I already have. It's just one consideration. Giving a bit of thought to this today, and I do place high importance on being able to move through the woods over uneven terrain to skid small logs or retrieve firewood. I feel I'd be ok with losing some digging capability as a trade off. If looking at smaller HP, larger frame tractors, what kind of GPM should I want in the hyrdraulics for good backhoe capability? Also, from what I've read, it seems that position control is far nicer than 1/4 inching or just up/down controls for the 3-pt. What does the New Holland T1510 have for controls?

I am open to other brands, but the closest Bobcat dealer is 40 miles away, and the closest Branson dealer is 100 miles, while the ones I listed are all in a 10 mile range. Service is an important consideration for me, so I tend to prefer local, established dealers and large parts networks.

Craigslist is checked daily for a score on a used tractor, but there isn't anything that jumps out at me currently. Thank you again for the discussion.

 

[JiminGa]

did you price out the B26? you might find it's more competitive than you think against your list. If memory serves I believe I was told one could be bought for less than $30k.

 

[Gittyup]

On hydraulics, when I compared, the Kioti CK25/27/30/35 have just shy of 13 gpm with about 5 gpm dedicated to power steering and the rest for loader/backhoe work. As I recall (and I don't remember the exact number, but you can look them up), the "equivalent" Kubota B3030 had like 8 gpm total. Similar numbers for a JD2520. I don't recall anyone being close to Kioti in the 25 - 30 hp range. The bobcat is the exact same wrt hydraulics.

On distance to dealer. It's nice to be close. But, that alone would not force me to one make over another. I bought from a dealer 250 miles away. Saved thousands, even with the delivery fee. I've had two warranty issues. The dealer came to me both times to fix them. For maintenance parts, I simply call and have them shipped to my door.

Now my other machine is a JD. The dealer is about 1/2 mile away. My tractor has been there once in 18 years of ownership. The dealer did the first repair. I've just this year had to do the second one: new cam gear at 1000 hours. I did it myself.

Tractors are generally of outstanding quality and won't see a dealership very often, unless you are real unlucky. It is nice to be able to simply run up there to get a maintenance item... but it's really so I can drool over the shiney new tractors

In a Kioti/BC, 30 HP TLB, loaded tires, 18" bucket - you are looking at somewhere around 5500 lbs in a very short wheelbase machine. Similar sized JD2520 weights close to 2000 less, as I recall. Same for some of the botas. I think some of the slightly bigger grand-L's come close to this weight.

In the CK20, you get 22 HP, good weight (3800 lbs), comparable hydraulics on a very short frame (about 100 inches). Other than the B26, nothing compares to cost/size/weight/performance, except the B26 would cost you 50% more.

1/4 inching vs. infinite is a preference thing. I don't see it as that big of a deal unless you need real precise repeatable settings.

 

[Verticaltrx]

As for size and weight, I'm willing to give up some capability on the higher end of things for maneuverability.

The L3200 Kubota is really about the same size as the B3300. In fact the B has a slightly longer wheelbase, so I don't think maneuverability would be a problem with either.

 

[herefromthere]

I keep an eye out for used tractors on Craigslist daily. Seems the Kubota B26's are pretty valued by their owners, as the one available currently has a $29k asking price with 130'ish hours. New, the dealer is asking around $35k locally. There was one a while back that seemed super low, like low $20's and another $3500 for a nice trailer. I see lots of the BX23's and -24's, John Deere 2305's, etc. for sale, but I know I don't want those. Other than that, not much interesting out there right now.

Interesting info on the Kioti CK20 and its hydraulics. Is Bobcat selling Kioti manufactured tractors now? (Think I saw that mentioned somewhere.) If so, then I assume they'd be servicing them at their dealers.

If I decide to buy a new tractor, how does one determine what is a reasonable price to pay? As far as I know, it's not like with cars where anyone with an internet connection can find dealer invoice, is it? Looking back at some old threads, it looks like MSRP is about 20% above invoice. Some dealers will discount 15-18%, but more often than not it will be discounted 13% with some bargaining. Is this still the case? Also, sounds like they add quite a bit to the price if financing with the nice rates.

 

[Redneck in training]

We have TYM 330 HST, It has 33 HP Kubota 1505 engine. We paid about 26000 in 2005 including FEL, bush hog, box blade and PHD, delivered to our house about 30 miles. The tractor has close to 500 hours now and so far I had only one minor issue I fixed in 5 minutes with a part I got from the dealer for free. In retrospect we should have bought at least one step bigger tractor. It does about 90% of what we need with ease but it strains to do the 10% of hard work.
TYM is made in South Korea.

 

[Verticaltrx]

If I decide to buy a new tractor, how does one determine what is a reasonable price to pay? As far as I know, it's not like with cars where anyone with an internet connection can find dealer invoice, is it? Looking back at some old threads, it looks like MSRP is about 20% above invoice. Some dealers will discount 15-18%, but more often than not it will be discounted 13% with some bargaining. Is this still the case? Also, sounds like they add quite a bit to the price if financing with the nice rates.

15% off MSRP is what I try to shoot for when buying a new tractor. Some big volume dealers can go as low as 17% off MSRP if you really drive a hard bargain. Not sure about Deere, but Kubota the financed price is the same as the cash price, unless they have other cash rebates in order. When I bought my B3200 there were no cash rebates and 0% financing, so cash price equaled financed price. I was planning to pay cash, but if Kubota wants to lend me free money I'll take it. :thumbsup:

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

It sounds like your all over the map and really unsure what is a want vs need.
Id first try and decide what frame size. Generally there are three, subcompact,medium frame,large frame. The subs would be the bx's or 2305's ck20's etc. The medium would be the deere 3000 series and ck30 etc. Kubota and NH bend the rules alittle in this catagorie, they offer lower hp large frame units. The tc-35 is an older NH example, not sure on the Kubota line up numbers.

So I'd try and figure how much loader lift you need and what other 3 pt implements you need. Almost all can have a BH added so that's shouldn't be a huge issue. Is getting into tight spots with the machine going to frequent? I think identifying the most common type of task you'll do will really make it a simple choice.

Matt

 

[KYDan]

Implements I forsee wanting include a box scraper, a small tiller, and something to help with skidding logs. The primary use won't be for that, but I will occasionally want to move logs over distance. Planned upgrades I'd like to start out with include: bolt on bucket cutting edge, 3 weld-on chain hooks on loader bucket, telescoping 3-point arms, ballasted R4 tires, I do have lots of hills, so stability is a big consideration. Re-grading the driveway, changing the pitch, and adding drainage will be ongoing projects. I will occasionally have to move some snow, and will initially do it with the front bucket, but may do something else later.

QUOTE] I bought a Kubota L2900 4WD GST in 1997 with a FEL & backhoe. I used it until this year when I sold it and purchased another Kubota MX5100 4WD HST with FEL. I did not purchase the backhoe with this tractor after having a small one for a number of years. I would not purchase another small backhoe again as they don't have enough reach for my needs and if you ever have any hose problems in the boom it is a nightmarish procedure to change them out. I will simply rent a small trackhoe if I need shovel work. That said, it is purely a personal decision. I like Kubotas better than any other tractor that I have owned or used in the compact/small tractor category. They hold their resale value and are virtually bullet proof. They do have their little quirks, but nothing more than midly irritating. If you get a loader and bucket, these I consider indispensable, opt for the HD roundback bucket if it is an available option. Also a toothbar dramatically enhances the utility of the bucket. I sold my 2900 as I don't need two tractors, not because of any issues with it. It was akin to parting with an old friend. I recouped half of my original investment when I sold it, try that with just about any other brand. I never had any issues with it or the FEL. The backhoe served me well for 12 years before I had any issues with it. I know other users like their brands and have their loyal followers as well. One caveat, know your dealer and stay local if possilbe as service is a big deal. I have a great dealer less than 10 miles from our farm and it is great. Good luck with your search and enjoy the process!

 

[Gittyup]

A ck20 is not a subcompact. It's a compact. Yes bc sells the same tractor as a ct122. There isnt a SCUT that compares beyond hp.

The only real difference from kioti to bc is that bc only sells the HST versions. They r equipped with different loaders and sometimes backhoes. Read their respective forums.

 

[rScotty]

On 20 acres of hilly land my wife and I started with a 16 hp subcompact and have worked up to a 60 hp turbocharged HST with power steering, loader, and backhoe. It took almost 40 years to get there and we sure learned a lot. It was my wife who finally convinced me to sit down and write out a list with all the things learned from the years of using tractors on our mountain land. We don't farm, but we do a lot of work with dirt and rocks and trees. And then she was the one who convinced me that instead of hour cobbled together fleet of used stuff we should get a newish tractor that did just what we wanted.

It surprised me that she wanted to go out and look at tractors, but she had made up her mind that the only way to get me to buy something was to do so, and it was sure fun to go tractor shopping with her. With her opinion and observation balancing my lifetime of brand prejudice....and with that list of what we had learned about tractors in hand, we tried to take an unprejudiced look at half a dozen brands.....maybe more.

Our criteria was that it had to be capable of doing every job on the place from firewood to trees to digging post holes and cleaning out the creek. This meant it had to have a loader, PS, a 3pt hitch, and a backhoe. Everything else was an option. We knew that the backhoe would be important (but didn't realize just how true that would be!) Having had a 3pt backhoe in the past, we were comfortable with 3pt backhoes, but knew that in order to be useful it would need to be a size that fits on a category II 3pt hitch. It turned out that requirement set the size of the tractor all by itself.

Basically, we had learned that although any small tractor will do the work, each slightly larger tractor cuts the time in half. On any large project the difference can easily be hours versus weeks. All size tractors - and all the brands that I've used - are remarkably reliable. We all like new machines, but experience had taught us that a good used tractor of any brand that will work reasonably hard for an hour without any problem will most likely work about the same for the next decade...probably for several decades.

I hope your quest is as enjoyable and your new tractor is a useful for your projects as ours turned out to be.
rScotty

 

[herefromthere]

I would rather have a used piece of equipment that fit my requirements than a new one that doesn't measure up. All of them are used once you get them home. I would look around for a used 110tlb or B26 if that is what you want. Both of these are really good machines and are available in good condition in your price range. I have a 110tlb and have been very satisfied with what it will do, very versatile machine. I have used the B26 which is smaller but really liked it's ability for the size, better than Deere's offerings in its weight class.

I'm extremely open to a used tractor and am always watching for one and will put a request in to the dealers for trade-ins. People tend to be very proud of those two models and price them accordingly, and I think the 110 is a little too large for my spaces here, both storage and around/in my buildings.

Weight is king for backhoe/loader work. You seem to be letting your trailer capacity dictate what size to buy. Could be a mistake where you are left with yet another underwhelming tractor. Now, I understand the trailer delemma. But, what good is a tractor that won't fit your needs?

Since weight is king, I like the Kioti/BC or Branson tractors for digging. Also, HP won't be as important for your intended tasks. Hydraulics will be. Again, this where the Kiotis/BCs shine. I recommend a DK40. I know these aren't on your list. But, you should give them serious consideration. Also, the 1600 series MFs are real beasts too.... and yes they will exceed your trailer capacity.

Within your trailer capacity, and giving outstanding digging performance, look at the Kioti CK20 or BC CT120. Nice short wheelbase with outstanding loader, weight, hydraulic specs. These are only 22 hp. But HP isn't the driving factor for many of your chores. You will likely save a good bit of money too.

How does the lower HP but higher gpm hydraulics translate/compare for overall operation to a higher hp but lower hydraulic flow? There is a CK20 I've seen advertised at a compelling price, so if it has the Wheaties to handle the work, that would be great. Would the Kubota B21 be similar? As I've said, the maneuverability is more important that being able to dig quickly and move maximum amount of earth. My driveway is tight/narrow, and I have areas around the house that big machines won't be able to touch, and that would defeat the purpose of having one. I also have lots of rolling terrain, so stability is a huge concern that I may not have addressed before. Is there a way to figure out which one will have lower center of gravity between manufacturers, or is that just going to be anecdotal based on users?

It sounds like your all over the map and really unsure what is a want vs need.
Id first try and decide what frame size. Generally there are three, subcompact,medium frame,large frame. The subs would be the bx's or 2305's ck20's etc. The medium would be the deere 3000 series and ck30 etc. Kubota and NH bend the rules alittle in this catagorie, they offer lower hp large frame units. The tc-35 is an older NH example, not sure on the Kubota line up numbers.

So I'd try and figure how much loader lift you need and what other 3 pt implements you need. Almost all can have a BH added so that's shouldn't be a huge issue. Is getting into tight spots with the machine going to frequent? I think identifying the most common type of task you'll do will really make it a simple choice.

Matt

I've tried to be as specific as a non-experienced person can be and do some research before asking questions, so I'm a little puzzled by the "all over the map" comment. If someone can point out where I'm doing that, it would be appreciated, and then I'll try to ask better questions. I am trying to learn as part of this process, and I appreciate the help. Nowhere have I remotely hinted at considering a SCUT in this thread, as I know it wouldn't be adequate based on my experience and what I've read in other threads. I was only joking in my reference to winning the lottery as to a JD 110TLB, as that's larger than I feel I need. I realize no machine is going to be perfect for everything, so I'm hoping that by putting as many considerations out there as possible, I'll be able to have people understand at least where I'm starting from.

I don't know exactly what I want in loader lift in weight or height, but I do know I'd be quite happy with twice + the weight capacity that the Kubota L3200 has of 1,490# max vs. the JD 2305's 708# max. Since I won't be loading dump trucks, height isn't a consideration unless there is something I'm missing. Since I do have a lot of driveway and will be sharing in some private road maintenance (light,) I'm wondering if the top & tilt feature would be valuable. I assume the alternative is to get off and adjust linkage by hand.

Later this week, I will try to visit the Bobcat dealer to see what they offer, which I resisted before due to the distance.

 

[Gittyup]

Hydraulic flow is what runs your loader and backhoe. So, the more you have, the faster they will work (generallly speaking). Pump capacity and line size dictate this. The tractor HP is simply used to run the pump, and all tractors use pumps matched to their HP.

Force comes from pressure developed (force= Pressure x Area), and higher HP sometimes means more pressure. Hence greater lift specs for bigger tractors (not the only factor though - cylinder size(area), implement frame, tractor weight, geometries). For loader work, extra HP will also help when pushing into a pile (assuming you don't lose traction first).

For the backhoe, the implement limits what you can gain to some degree. And you can only use the full force of the backhoe up to the weight of the tractor. At that point you start pushing the tractor around.

The B21 is a great option, as they are made for industrial use. But, it'll cost ya.

You should definitely go and try out the CK20. It might be all that you need.