14T baler (help ZZvyb6)

[dgh]

Here's my problem: Knotter is not making a full revolution when tripped. The trip dog roller makes contact with the trip arm (to reset the roller) too early it seems so the cam on the knotter clutch stops rotating the knotter gears. The result is that at the end of the knotter cycle the intermittent knotter gear is 1-2" short of full revolution. Timing is then off.

Knotter drive chain is nearly new. There is no gap between trip dog roller and cam when roller is tripped. Knotter turns freely by hand when drive chain is off.

Maybe the solution is obvious and I'm just an idiot but any ideas would be appreciated.

I can take a picture of end result if that would help anyone understand what's going on.

 

[zzvyb6]

Check for a broken tooth (first or last) on the intermittent knotter gear. Second guess is the knotter drive chain has jumped a tooth, so its now out of time. Do you have the manual describing the timing procedure?

Third guess is that the needle brake is too loose. This causes a hiccup in the knotter rotation cycle and the drive won't reach the home position detent.

Assuming that the main drive chain is still "in-time", lock the needles in their home position and trip the trip-dog roller with the bale measuring arm and rotate the clutch ring counterclockwise (facing the LH side of the baler) until the lug on the inside of the clutch ring connects the trip dog roller.

Then install the knotter drive chain. If necessary, back the clutch ring away from the roller to connect the chain.

The key here is that if you are standing behind the baler, the LH side is on your Left. When working from the top, (as is common) some guys are facing the wrong way as Mom reads the manual.

 

[dgh]

No missing teeth on intermittent gears - I checked carefully. I've got the manual for the baler and I've timed it so many times trying to figure out problem that I can do it in my sleep. Knotter drive chain is not jumping a tooth. The chain is slightly loose when installed but there is no way to take up slack that I can see.

The needle brake is a possibility but I have disconnected the needle lift arm and run the baler through a cycle and it still does not return to the detent position. Maybe with the needles disconnected the hiccup you described still can happen. I'll check the needle brake tomorrow and let you know what happens.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[zzvyb6]

I posted a 14T knotter video on YouTube some time ago. See if you can find it. I ran the tractor at an idle so you can see the trip, needle rise, intermittent gear rotation, tucker finger swipe and cutoff arm swing. Check it out for timing, amount of motion and noises.

YouTube - John Deere Baler Knotter Action

 

[zzvyb6]

Another wild thought: Are you familiar with Skype? Its a free 2 way internet video stream that could be used by me to see your machine in real time with voice.

You would need to have a DSL or cable grade connection and a pretty good video camera, as well as a way to get the camera to the machine (either a long ethernet cable or a wireless network connection).

I have not done anything like that before with Skype, but have used it for many family gatherings. It seems like it ought to put me right there in front of your baler.

 

[dgh]

Fast internet connection but no skype. I'll try to take video with my daughter's camera and post it somewhere. Probably won't happen for a day or two as we're supposed to get rain for next 48 hours.

 

[nugefan]

I've got the same problem with my 14t, and just like you could pull my hair out and can time it in my sleep. Please post the cure if you find one. Many thanks and good luck.

 

[dgh]

Rain finally stopped so I could get out and look at baler. Checked needle brake according to specs in manual (17-22 lbs to move) and brake was tighter than spec. For the heck of it I loosened the brake and ran a cycle, then tightened the brake and ran several cycles - same result - knotter stops about 1" short of detent position. I disconnected the lift arm and knotter drive chain and turned the knotter by hand again. Knotter turns smoothly and all parts (twine disk, bill hook, knife arm, tucker fingers) seem to be doing just what they are supposed to do. This would seem to suggest that either the lift arm/needles or drive is the source but who knows. I'm stumped. I am going to take video tomorrow and will update.

 

[zzvyb6]

Check the posiion of the tucker finger drive cam lobe relative to the left knotter frame. It should be lined up directly with it. If not, then there is a positioning problem (timing) that has a number of causes. First diagnosis would be that the knotter drive is out of time relative to the trip dog.

If its not lined up, then make it line up by (they should then be parallel) by turning by hand, one of the knotter gears of the needle pickup link. This should put you in home position, with the knotter stop roller in the right intermittent gear notch. There should be 3 springs that assist the stop: 2 for the upper hay dogs and one for the stop mechanism.

Next: The clutch ring has a cam lobe on it that should now be in the 12 o'clock position. (That means straight up). You said it had been timed, so I expect this to be true. The high point (actually 'low' point) of this lobe is my timing reference.

Now look at the position of the set screw on the trip dog bracket (its the sort of round casting inside the clutch ring). The set screw should be positioned in between 2 and 3 o'clock as seen from the left side. I don't mean it can be anywhere between 2 and 3 oclock, I mean its got to be 1/2 way between these two angular readings. Normally this set screw rides in a dimple in the knotter drive shaft, but my first guess would be that its come loose, broken or the shaft has fractures or worn in this area and the trip dog has lost its angular reference zero. Yeah it may have caught on somewhere but its now out of position and the cam ends its travel without the drive shaft being in home position. While you are at it, peek inside the trip dog and make sure the engagement spring is there and its surrounding area is not all full of chaff, mud, stone or other fragments. Such stuff could confuse the clutch into thinking its done, when its not. The clutch ring has a steel follower on it. Make sure that its still there.

OK try all that stuff. If the set screw is bad of loose or out of position, reset it and be sure to tighten the lock nut.

Last possibility is that the knotter drive shaft is bent (twisted) as a result of a major needle drive collision. There is supposed to be a shear pin in the needle lift link to prevent this, but you can guess how that can go haywire (so to speak) !. If the trip dog set screw is in position and the set screw is on the shaft dimple but the intermittent gears and needle lift are out of position, then the shaft is twisted. Yes people have been know to straighten it by putting a large pipe wrench on the needle lift arm (remove the safety cover if necessary), and put a long pipe on the wrench (as in 6' extension). Its best to put 2 wrenches on it (one pulling up and one pushing down) to keep from cracking a knotter frame. Anyways, you might have to do this just to remove the shaft from the knotter cage because the twisted section will complicate the removal of the gears and the clutch ring.

I sure hope this helps. See if you can watch my Youtube video to check the sequence of events and positions when the knotter is tripped.

I'm really focusing on the clutch ring and trip dog action until you certify that its all timed correctly. Hope its not a twisted shaft. PITA.

 

[zzvyb6]

I took a look at my own 14T just now and here's what I can imagine: Take a good look at the trip dog mechanism and the clutch ring associated with it. These are the parts that engage when the measuring wheel decides its time to tie the knots. If the cam on the inside of the clutch ring becomes worn, or, the trip dog roller becomes worn (either flat spotted or center hole worn) or even if the roller pin becomes worn, then the knotter engagement time will be shortened and may cause an incomplete cycle such as you describe.

That's now where I'd focus all my attention. These are relatively small parts (so hopefully low cost) but a bit harder to get at and change. You have to pull the knotter shaft partway out to slip out the trip dog and/or replace the clutch ring.

The clutch ring may also be a culprit by itself because of the wear likely to result if the dog roller froze up.

 

[dgh]

I've posted a few photos of my 14T for you to look at. Here are some comments re your last two posts. I am not sure what you mean about tucker finger cam lobe lining up with knotter frame. There's a picture of it attached - you can comment. The springs for the hay dogs and stop mechanism are in working order. The cam lobe on my baler is not at 12 o'clock in home position, It's more like 10 or 11 o'clock. But I think this is correct because the manual shows the cam lobe in this position when the baler is timed and in home position. i can post a copy of the manual page if needed. In looking at your you tube video it's apparent that my baler is an earlier or later model than yours so maybe that accounts for the difference. When the cam lobe is at 10 or 11 the set screw is about 2:00. I took off the set screw and it looks like its on the dimple. There is also a cotter pin that runs through the trip dog bracket and knotter shaft so maybe that helps keep the bracket in the correct position. In the picture you can see the cotter pin (the set screw is out but you can see it's location too). I agree that the problem must be related to the clutch/trip dog mechanism. I'll call JD dealer tomorrow and see if I can get replacements.

Anyway look at my pics and see if you see something out of order.

 

[dgh]

Here's a couple of more pics

 

[zzvyb6]

A couple of things I see right away from your pics:

1) If those are flat spots on the trip dog roller, (looks like there are several), then the knotter drive is terminating early (just a tiny amount kills you).

2) The tucker finger cam follower and its roller are an inch or so away from contact with the cam in the home position. The follower is the roller deal to the south east of your bale counter in the picture. This can get bent (twisted) because of a loose weld or a twisted shaft. I'd recommend you straighten it back up so its in full contact with the cam lobe. Put a very large Cresent wrench on the arm with a length extender and bend it back while holding the end of the shaft. This means the timing of the tucker fingers and their delivery of the twine to the twine disks must be re-checked. Also, check the clearence of the tucker fingers to the needles so they don't make contact. Your machine must be making quite a racket when that cam lobe strikes the roller with that much play in it. I keep mine always in full contact.

If the trip roller has a major flat on it, then replacing it will sove your problem. While it;s in surgery, though, I'd readjust the tucker finger drive arm, the reset the tucker finger link lengths, and the needle lift link length.

All these things will make it live for another 100,000+ bales.

 

[zzvyb6]

Here's a shot of my knotter set up. I'm trying to show you the tucker finger cam follower in contact with the cam lobe on the main knotter shaft.

 

[dgh]

Now I understand the tucker finger cam follower. I'll bend mine back into shape and readjust tucker fingers. A quick phone call to JD suggests that the trip dog roller/bracket and clutch ring are no longer available for this baler. Maybe i can find a parts baler somewhere or see if a machine shop can replace the roller.

I'll let you know how I make out. Thanks for all your help - you're great.

 

[zzvyb6]

If you are not familiar with eBay, now is the time. There are several sellers parting out old 14Ts. Enter "14t" in the search box and limit the search to Business and Industrial.

Then pick out a part and look at the wording. Most sellers will offer you specific other parts they have not listed yet. Have at it.

 

[nugefan]

"Z",
I have been following your diagnosis of dgh baler woes. I have the same problem, only mine only misses detent by 1/2 in. I have noticed there seems to be side slop in both the clutch ring and bevel gear on feeder tooth to knotter drive. That is a splined shaft, and it appears tapered also, but the gears seem to have a bit of side play, resulting in gear lash. Do you know of the tolerances here? My baler is in excellent shape, even the sprocket teeth are square. But it won't stay in time due to the failure to rotate to detent, so obviously I'm over looking something. Sure is perplexing. So close yet so far! My knotters are of a generation earlier than yours, but I thought maybe... Many thanks for all your efforts.

 

[zzvyb6]

Woodruff key worn or broken? Key notch chewed up ? Its not splined. Its a keyed shaft.

 

[dgh]

Here's an update. I bought a used trip dog roller/bracket and knotter clutch on ebay. Should be here is a day or two. I'll let you know if it solves the problem. I'm as perplexed as you nugefan.

 

[garybork]

I have a John Deere 14T and the other day when I was baling around a corner, the flywheel shear pin broke (which I replaced), but the thing I can't figure out is that the PTO slip clutch now turns freely on the shaft - IS THERE A SHEAR PIN there? I don't see one (have not taken it apart yet) and no mention of one in the manual.
Thanks.
Gary